two completely unrelated questions

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

Are there phrases in Russian that people use all the time that are technically incorrect, but sound much more natural? I was thinking of the common English phrase "Me and Bob went somewhere," where "me and Bob" is technically incorrect, but what (most) people say casually anyway. In this case, saying it the correct way ("Bob and I") can sound stilted. Are there examples of this sort of thing in Russian?

In a completely unrelated, and much weirder, question -- has anyone read the Russian version of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series? I was thinking about the section where it talks about time travel and verb tense, and was wondering how that was translated.

Comments

[penguinny.livejournal.com]

I think a reasonable example is a common way to ask a person whether he or she wants to eat or drink something, say tea or soup. Будешь чай? Суп будешь?

[oryx_and_crake]

It's colloquialism, OK, but not exactly incorrect.

[nemica.livejournal.com]

What about "упал, отжался" then?

[malaya-zemlya.livejournal.com]

It's an legal form of imperative, rather rude and colloquial but lingustically fine. I don't think even the most conservative grammarian would find fault with it.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Seconded. A rude colloquial form of imperative.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but for all purposes of students of Russian, it should be deemed illegal until we reach a certain age/level. Just like alcohol. Not that many people follow the rules anyway...

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

That's right, but those who aren't allowed to drink alcohol legally, do know that alcohol exists, nevertheless. This is the same story: предупреждён - значит вооружён (warned means armed,) the proverb says.

[padruka1988.livejournal.com]

I'd say it's incorrect! Будешь чай? Will you tea or even will you be tea? No, I most certainly won't be tea, but I would like to have some tea. :)

[oryx_and_crake]

This is no proof at all. Word-to-word translation never works. Most Russian phrases will turn into bad English or sheer nonsense if you just substitute every Russian word with an English one.

[padruka1988.livejournal.com]

...of course. Most phrases in ANY language will turn into bad language, and most English phrases will turn into weird sentences in other languages. That's not the point at all here.

Будешь чай? It LITERALLY means "Will you tea?" or "Will you be tea?", but nobody understands it as that.... everyone (well, those who speak Russian and know what's going on) knows that it means "Won't you drink tea?"

Therefore, the phrase IN AND OF ITSELF is incorrect... But when it is said around other people, it is correct because it's just understood that way.

[oryx_and_crake]

It LITERALLY means "Will you tea?"

No it does not. And you make the same error of literal translation.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

In Russian, like in many other languages, some words and/or expressions do have both literal meaning and figurative meaning. Some of them are widely used only in their figurative meaning, and no one (being sane :)) would point that their literal meaning is a logical nonsense. For example, nobody would laugh when hearing that "часы идут", pointing that, ha-ha-ha, a watch cannot walk! No, this expression uses the figurative meaning of идти, "to go". This is almost exactly the same case: "будешь чай" is grammatically correct, because it uses the figurative [though very colloquial] meaning of the future tense of the verb быть -- this meaning (still being very colloquial) incorporates the omitted "to consume," i.e. "will you something" means here "will you consume something." Yes, this is not the direct, literal meaning, but still a 100 per cent legal, grammatically correct secondary, or figurative, meaning (though the one that's used only in colloquial speech.)

[solito.livejournal.com]

You are not right, it is just an omission: "Будешь [пить] чай?". There is a lot of phrases with ellipsis in every language.

[padruka1988.livejournal.com]

I realize this, but someone wanted to argue whether this is "incorrect" or not... and technically, this IS incorrect... It's not even a matter of omitting a word... But when speaking with other people, it's not incorrect... It's just a way of asking someone if they want to drink tea.

Like the original post said, "me and Bob" - that is incorrect. But people use it all the time, and generally speaking, it IS correct. That is what the original post was all about - are there any "incorrect" phrases that are so common, that they've become "correct".

[solito.livejournal.com]

Again, I disagree that it is incorrect. It's a correct form of omission, which gives it a colloquial flavor, but it is correct!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

seconded! (http://www.livejournal.com/community/learn_russian/256511.html?thread=3466495#t3466495)

[penguinny.livejournal.com]

You see, I wasn't sure how illiterate "me and Bob" sounds in (American?) English. I could go for "моя твоя понимай", which would be absolutely incorrect, but not so commonly used. I think this kind of ellipsis in Russian is a correct example of a purely colloquial language use. In other words, I was trying to translate the concept rather than the "error" bit.

[malaya-zemlya.livejournal.com]

There are a few russian translations on HHGTTG (and other works by Adams) posted on-line:

http://www.lib.ru/ADAMS/
I haven't read any of them, so I cannot vouch for their quality. IMHO Adams' prose is impossible to translate anyhow, so no use trying.

As of your first question, there are many difficult parts in Russian, as you are no doubt aware (declension of numerals, weird declensions, negation etc) but I cannot right now think of a case when "incorrect" usage sounds better than "correct". Then again, maybe I am missing something pefectly obvious.

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

Ooh, thanks for the link. Now if I could just remember which book it's in...!

[yk4ever.livejournal.com]

Restaurant "At the End of the Universe", chapter 15

I personally prefer Masha Spivak's translation, usually found on http://www.harrypotter.ru/HP_trans.htm, though site often goes down.

[oryx_and_crake]

Tastes differ, but I don't like this pasrticular translation.
You don't even have to go further than the introduction - Spivak translates "Ursa Minor" as "планета Урса Минор" ("Planeta OOrsa Meenor") which is an unbelievable blunder, because Ursa Minor is not a planet and is not called "Урса Минор" in Russian (it is Малая Медведица, literally - The Small She-Bear, just in case anyone is interested).

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Spivak has a bunch of wild fans who are rather blind to her multiple factual and linguistic errors (not even entering the shaky grounds of individual tastes: I honestly cannot understand why her "Толстая Тётя" for the Gryffindor's Fat Lady is any better than the "official" translation's "Полная дама", etc.)

[yk4ever.livejournal.com]

You have the point. But multiple Spivak flaws are somewhat compensated by her attention to details (she wouldn't skip even "untranslatable" things) and phonetics. I believe "Толстая Тётя" was chosen primarily by phonetical reason.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

For me, this is entirely the matter of personal taste. To my ear, "Толстая Тётя" sounds just awful :)

[yk4ever.livejournal.com]

well... Both Hogwarts and HP book series are aimed at children... and for them, I believe, usage of "Тётя" instead of "Дама" is more natural.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Children? You gotta be kidding. My 15-years-old swallowed one Harry P. after another -- when Russian translations were over, he started to gnaw the English originals. And I have forgotten when had he last used "тётя" in his life :)))

[kehlen-crow.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm 24 and I still use "дядя" sometimes. I do it when I laugh at myself yet use it :)

[kehlen-crow.livejournal.com]

When someone told me she calls Severus Snape Злеус Злей I understood I don't want to read such a translation.

Official russian "Снегг" isn't much better though :)

[oryx_and_crake]

Well, considering that Severus is clearly related to "severe", I'd say that Злеус is not that bad.

[kehlen-crow.livejournal.com]

That is right, yet Злей is far from Snape, which I believe is a derivative from "to snap", быть резким, ругаться...

I don't want him to be Злей :P

[oryx_and_crake]

Personally I think that Snape comes from "snake" and "snipe", maybe with a dash of "nape" (of one's neck that he grasps to strangle you :-))

Unfortunately, some things in this life are not to our liking :-)

And when translating a wordplay or a meaningful name of a character,it is very difficult to preserve both the meaning and the sound of it.

[kehlen-crow.livejournal.com]

I agree with you.

Let us just hope we'll see who is right this summer, not when the 7th book is out!

[angels-chinese.livejournal.com]

I guess that Snape comes from "snake" and "ape". Exactly like Snark = snape + shark ;)

[mpp181.livejournal.com]

We call such translator co-author. It's no good at all.

[gera.livejournal.com]

There are about as many such incorrect-but-acceptable colloquialisms in Russian as in English.

[solito.livejournal.com]

It's difficult to find an example quickly - but here are a couple of them:

"Моя не поняла" instead of "Я не поняла"
"Я ему говорю не ложить, а он ложит" instead of "Я ему говорю не класть, а он кладет"
"Ты чего плакаешь" instead of "Почему ты плачешь"

The reasons to use them are very different: sometimes it's an imitation of illiterate people, sometimes an imitation of a child, sometimes just because the incorrect form is widely spread.

Several days ago there was a good example of it here. Most Russians use cardinal numerals instead of ordinal ones if the numeral is complex JUST BECAUSE they do not know how to decline them properly.

Just as an example - I swear that in the phrase "Стоимость заказа составляет рублевый эквивалент двадцати двух тысяч шестисот сорока восьми долларов девяноста двух центов США, включая НДС, эквивалентный трем тысячам четырёмстам пятидесяти четырем долларам девяносто двум центам США" [The rouble cost of the order is an equivalent of $22648.92, including VAT, equivalent of $3454.92] many Russian people will say "шестьсот" instead of "шестисот", "четырехсот" instead of "четырёмстам" etc.

[roman-v-m.livejournal.com]

Most of the people say the singular form of тапки (slippers) as masculine тапок though the literary correct form is feminine тапка. Кофе is often treated as neuter e.g. горячее кофе.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

The latter form is now included in the newest dictionaries as a legitimate one, though I personally still use neuter -- but one cannot resist to millions of others :))

[miram.livejournal.com]

Many textbooks seem to recommend "Который час?" for "What time is it?", though people in the street would usually say "Сколько времени?", "Время сколько?", or "Время не [под]скажете?".

[roman-v-m.livejournal.com]

After the verb хотеть plural nouns are oten used in Genetive (хотеть денег, развлечений, новых впечатлений etc) though хотеть is a transitive verb and normally requires Accusative.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Yup, that's right: "послушать какой-нибудь музыки" is another popular example, though the only legitimate form still is "послушать какую-нибудь музыку" (to listen to some music.)

[ilia-yasny.livejournal.com]

Most people being asked "Сколько времени?" (what time is it?) will reply (assuming it's e.g. 5:30) "Полшестого" (lit. "half of six").
The correct way to say is "Половина шестого".