(no subject)

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

I've accumulated a number of questions over the past few weeks, so I'm putting them all in one post, hopefully it is not overwhelming! Any help you could give would be great.

1. I've seen Jesus Christ written Иисус in Russian. But I've also heard Jesus referred to as something like "Ешуа" in Russian (for example, in the Russian serial film Master and Margarita). What's the difference between saying Иисус and Ешуа?

2. I read a list of verbs starting with the prefix "пред" which all mean roughly "to expect" or "to anticipate," but I don't think I've ever heard them used in actual conversation. Are the verbs предвидеть and предвкушать used? For instance, could I say "я предвижу, что ЦСКА выиграет" or would this sound strange and bookish? I know ожидать may be more commonly used.

3. What case does the verb перепутывать / перепутать use-- nominative, accusative, genitive, instrumental? For instance Я всегда перепутываю фейерверк(и/ов/ами) и салют(ы/ов/ами)?

4. How do you say "to pay someone back"? Is it just (за)платить кем–то? For instance, if someone lends you some money, can you reply: Я тебе заплачу завтра?

5. What's the difference between "к примиру" and "напримир"? Are they completely interchangeable?

Comments

Oops

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

For my example in question 4, I meant to write "Я тобой заплачу завтра?"!

Re: Oops

[omi-nya.livejournal.com]

Correct to say "Я _тебе_ заплачу завтра"
But usually people says "Я тебе _отдам_ завтра", there *отдам* means *отдам деньги*, but word *деньги* usually

About *предвидеть\предчувствовать* and so on- thouse words are usually used in books,newspapers. In common conversation we use *мне кажется\я думаю* instead of *предвижу*.
Word *предвкушать* also used mostly in books, like *Я предвкушаю победу*.

You don't need to use *пере-* if you're talking about yourself (only if you're talking about past -"Я перепутал фейрверки и салюты на прошлой неделе"). It's correct to say *Я путаю*. If you're talking about other people, you CAN say *перепутывает\перепутывают* but we use *путает\путают* in common speach.

*К примеру* is more bookish than *Например*, that's all.

Re: Oops

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

предвидеть can be used in conversation too, but in a different way. for example it can be said - это надо было предвидеть. or ты должен предвидеть это. so in that sought of way i think the word is very exceptable in conversation.

Re: Oops

[mortimer-ford.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but I found the Babelfish translation of that quite amusing.

4 by you I will begin to cry tomorrow?

I like how they use the number 4. Babelfish sucks, but I'm unfamiliar with a lot of these words.

Re: 1

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

Ok, that's what I thought too, but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Thanks

Re: 1

[imorl.livejournal.com]

Pay attention that in Russian Orthodox Bible there are two personages called “Иисус” — Jesus Christ of the New Testament is the second of them and the first one is Joshua from the Old Testament, heir to Moses, also called “Иисус Навин” (son of Nun). Just as their names are different in English, them are different in modern Hebrew as well — Joshua's name is pronounced Yehoshua (יהושע) and Jesus' name is pronounced Yeshu (ישו). It should be noted that name Yehoshua is pretty widespread in Israel today but I have never met or heard about somebody named Yeshu :)

[alon_68]

1. Russian for Jesus Christ is strictly Иисус Христос. Ешуа is limited to the mentioned Bulgakov's novel. You can also see Ешуа (or Ешу) in some Jewish religious texts in Russian but they in no way represent the dominant Russian use.

4. Я тебе верну завтра

5. К примеру and например. I guess they are mostly interchangeable, but "например" is more widely used.

[oryx_and_crake]

1. Иешуа (not Ешуа) is a form of the same name (Jesus) that Bulgakov calls his character in "Master and Margarita". Outside this novel (and movies based upon it) no one calls Jesus Иешуа.

2. yes, пред is short for перед and generally means to do smth. beforehand (предвидеть to foresee, предсказать to forecast)

3. перепутываю is not a word, use путаю; путаю что с чем, e.g. фейерверки с салютами

4. я ТЕБЕ отдам (верну) завтра (not заплачу тобой because this means "I will pay by means of you"!)

5. It is напримЕр and к примЕру, and they ae synonyms.

[zveriozha.livejournal.com]

"Outside this novel (and movies based upon it) no one calls Jesus Иешуа. "

You are not correct here. The word Иешуа is widely used in judaism research, messianic texts etc. But not in christian cultural environment. It's not Bulgakov's property. ;)

[oryx_and_crake]

OK, I stand corrected :-)

[khathi.livejournal.com]

1. Not exactly. "Иисус" is russified form of Greek transliteration of his name. "Ίησους", same as latinized "Jesus". "Иешуа", on the contrary, is a direct cyrillization of his original Hebrew name "יהושע" (or Aramaic "ישוע", which might be even closer).

2. I have an opinion that words with "пре-/пред-" prefix are "book style" wors, and as such are rare in oral speech, especially out of high-style context. In fact, I've seen countless times, when they were used for ironic effect to parodize some overexalted style of person.

3. "Перепутывать" is a completely legal word, it simply does mean something entirely different -- namely intermingling some ropes or threads, not mixing some concepts of meanings -- that's "путать". But in perfect there is no difference between these two verbs, so it's better to take care.

[oryx_and_crake]

1. Did my posting say anything contrary to your #1?

2. предсказывать погоду, for example, is perfectly OK and not "high style"
у меня нехорошее предчувствие, я предвижу, что нас ждут проблемы are also OK and not "high style"

3. right, but still перепутываю фейерверки с салютами is not OK

[khathi.livejournal.com]

1. It seemed to unduly limit the "Yeshua" name use to Bulgakov's novel only. For me at least.

2. While okay in a newscast of on a newspaper page, it still seems awkward in colloquial conversation.

3. Exactly. That's why I said that care should be given in this case.

[yurka-spb.livejournal.com]

1. Jesus is Иисус. In Master and Margarita Bulgakov tried to imitate the old Jewish pronunciation to show that Woland is not retelling the Bible but telling how it "really happened".
2. These words are used in conversation but rarely than ожидать. Предвкушать is used when you expect to enjoy smth, предвидеть has no flavour of your own attitude, it just means forecast or foresee.
3. accusative
4. It is better to use "верну деньги". Я тобой заплачу завтра means something like "I am going to pay someone else and use you as a fee" which is probably not what you wanted to say.
5. I can not see the difference. But maybe it exists :)

[valnoled.livejournal.com]

1. Иисус - так называют Христа по-русски.
Иешуа - это имя персонажа из романа "Мастер и Маргарита".

2. Предвижу - sounds like a prophecy ))

3. Frankly, I am not into Grammar rules, but IMHO you should use "путать" with "всегда".
Я всегда путаю... cause that is imperfective verb.

4. Pay someone back - Отплатить/отдать долг/вернуть долг-деньги...
Заплатить - is OK, but it has more common sense, so if you really need to make an emphasis on paying BACK, you should use another word... in my opinion

6. I don't really see the difference ))

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

3. Перепутать has a quite limited use: я перепутал, извините (sorry, I got that all wrong) etc. -- almost always in past tense. Мой сын маленький и ещё глупый, всё перепутал (my son is still little and thus silly, so ge got all that wrong); BUT мой сын маленький и ещё глупый, всё путает (present tense). Be careful with this verb, because even in the past tense there is a lot of slight nuances represented by a list of different verbs in perfective aspect: я всё перепутал (I got that all wrong) - я многое напутал (I got something wrong) - я спутал кое-что кое с чем (once I mixed up something with something else) - я запутал других и сам запутался (I got others confused and confused myself) etc.

1. If you have but a slightest shade of expectation that your Russian counterpart may be a religious Christian, never, ever use Bulgakov character's name instead of Иисус (The Lord's name.) You can, of course, use Иешуа when discussing Bulgakov's book or both movies based on it. Just don't mix those two cases up (не путай) :))

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

but u can say: мой сын маленький и глупый, и всё перепутает. this would imply future tense.

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the feedback. And what about using Перепутать with some objects-- I mix up THIS and THIS? I confuse THIS and THIS? Can you say that? And if so, what case should the objects be in?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Спутать requires the following case pattern: что-то/кого-то с чем-то/кем-то (accusative + с [with] + prepositional.) Я спутал глаз с ухом (I mixed up my eye and my ear.)
Перепутать + objects is possible, but requires a different pattern: что-то и что-то (accusative + и [and] + accusative) -- as if in я перепутал причину и следствие (I mixed up the cause and its consequence.) Stylistically this usage is much worse that спутать что-то с чем-то, and is almost inapplicable to animated nouns (you can say я спутал папу с мамой, but cannot say я перепутал маму и папу - well, you can, but this sounds rather ridiculous.)

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

>What's the difference between "к примиру" and "напримир"? Are they completely interchangeable?

The greatest difference between those two and the real thing is that these two are wrong: it's к примеру and например (stress is on "e" in both cases.) They are pretty much interchangeable, except that к примеру sounds a bit less colloquial and a bit more "bookish" than например.

[zveriozha.livejournal.com]

The thing is that we know about word Ieshua mostly from Bulgakov's novel. But it was not made up by him. =)

http://nlib.iatp.org.ua/www/nlib.php?cat=0/03/4/05

Still, yes - Jesus is Иисус, except some specific cases.

[ex-forest-l.livejournal.com]

1. Usually Jesus is Иисус - that's what the official orthodox church thinks. There are some groups of break-away orthodoxes (раскольники), who still think that the church reform of 1670-s was illegitimate and therefore write the name as Исус. Иешуа is a name of a character of 'Master and Margarita', who is, indeed, portrayed almost like Jesus - but he still is a fiction character, nothing more.
4. You might say "Я тебе заплачу завтра". And you might say "Я тебе отплачу", if you want to hint that you might take revenge on the person. :)
5. I think "к примеру" is a little more bookish, simply because it creates a little pause in your speech.

[mister-cat.livejournal.com]

1. I guess already explained.
2. Not sure that verbs with "пред" prefix are pure book-style. However, in your example ("я предвижу, что ЦСКА выиграет") it sounds so. You may hear such phrase from sport TV commentator but not from fan. In spoken language it would be smth like "я думаю/уверен/мне кажется, что ЦСКА выиграет".
I've never thought about it, but it seems using "предвидеть" as an expression of degree of somebody's personal confidence is really something like book-style (or magicianы' slang :-) ). However, in impersonal case it's OK to use it ("[мне/нам] это надо было предвидеть").
3. "Перепутать" - this is perfect form of the verb. "Он опять перепутал салюты и феерверки". In your example, there should be "Я всегда путаю салюты и феерверки / салюты с феерверками".
4. "to pay someone back" literally will be something like "отплатить [кому-то](услугой за услугу)" or "расплатиться [с кем-то]" (and "отплатить" often carry a negative sence - "return good for evil"). However, when we talk about money, we usually say "я верну тебе деньги/долг завтра".
5. Almost the same as correspondence between "for example" and "e.g." - as for me, both of the words are interchangeable.