Clarification

[xxblackxsatinxx.livejournal.com]

Hello everyone! =D

A friend and I have been studying at the Institute of Russian Studies and Culture in SPB. We were put into a class that had been going on for a while and obviously there are things that we've had to just learn on the fly. The professors are, thankfully, very patient and realize that certain things we haven't learnt.

However, we're just looking for some clarification on some grammatical nuances that we've briefly covered in class. Of course, the explanation to these grammar rules are in Russian and sometimes you don't understand the complete meaning of when and how to use it.



1) Short Adjectival Forms

ex: Эта страна богата нефтью и газом.

Why is it not "Эта страна богатая..."?

ex: Вечером этот город очень красив.

Do you use short adjectival forms in a specific case? Or in a specific instance?

2) Деепричастия

ex:
кричать - криЧат - кричА
спешить - спеШат - спешА
учиться - уЧатся - уЧась

We just have pages and pages of examples of these verbs but no concrete usages.

3) для или за или на = for

I have in my notes that you use для и за when answering кого? I know when to use для when it's followed by чего? As in ... купить мебель для спальни.

And how to use за + что like in toasts (drinking..)

But we were never told which cases follow these. Of course, with enough examples one can make a deduction but I'd rather know for sure which case follows.

And then comes in на - кого? что?

My question is how do you difference when to use them all since some are followed by the same case. Which instances would you choose one over the other and how do you really know for sure? Or is it just something that comes with practice and just knowing which one goes with which. I'm okay when it comes to using these in instances of time reference but otherwise, I'm slightly confused.

I hope that made sense!



Спасибо!

Comments

[daskalidi.livejournal.com]

1. Short form marks a predicative usage.
a rich country -- богатая страна (attributive usage).
The country is rich -- страна богата (predicativve usage).
2.Он бежал, грмко крича.
Спеша на поезд, он забыл кошелек.
A good analogy is -ing-form.

[bartoli.livejournal.com]

3 - a characteristic of the person or object described (long form)
Эта улица узкая, а эта широкая.
3 - a characteristic that depends on
exterior factors (short form)
Эта улица узкая, а эта широкая. Эта улица узка для интенсивного движения.

[bartoli.livejournal.com]

long form short form
1 - spoken language
Этот пример интересный.
1 - more literary, formal language
Этот пример интересен.
2 - for permanent characteristic
Он больной человек.
2 - for temporary state
Он болен.

[mikhist.livejournal.com]

I guess "Этот пример интересный" is incorrect, it's rather "Это - интересный пример". Subtle matter, even native speakers sometimes make mistakes here. The same for "Он - больной человек".

[bartoli.livejournal.com]

Этот пример интересный" is incorrect
Этот пример интересный" is correct, sorry

Это вино дорогое.
Этот хлеб невкусный, я его никогда не покупаю.
_______________________________
The same for "Он - больной человек".
It not the same:-)))

[barilotti.livejournal.com]

As for "для"/"за" issue - I guess you're confused because in English it would be "for" in both cases?

Для - is "for something", "with the purpose of something", I bought this thing for my children - Я купила эту вещь для своих детей
За - is more "for the sake of someone", I am worried for my children, I'm happy for you - Я волнуюсь за своих детей, я счастлив за вас

But if you do something for someone, like "I did it for you" - you use Я сделал это для тебя. In this case using "за" would mean "instead of" - Я сделал это за тебя - I made it instead of you

You'll get it with practice. За has more connotations than just the one synonimous with для

[barilotti.livejournal.com]

Now, деепричастия. I'm not sure what's the problem here. If it is учить-ся, then уча-сь, if it is учи-ть, then уча. If it is делать - дела-я, if it is делать-ся, - делая-сь, etc. Just read more texts and you'll remember )))

[konstkaras.livejournal.com]

3. 'Для' is used with Generative case, but 'на' and 'за' as 'for' is used with Accusative case.

Мы купили мебель и обои для спальни. Мы потратили на спальню 50000 рублей.

'На' as 'for' is used more rarely. First, to describe some kinds of spending, actual or planned. "Мебель на спальню" is beyond literate Russian, some kind of тётка-style speaking; "одежда на мальчика" is better, but 'на' here almost has spatial meaning.
Second, 'на' is used for some numeric estimates: запас еды на неделю, обои на две комнаты.
Also, it may be used with such verbs as
'рассчитать': Эта мебель рассчитана на спальню - this furniture is designed STRICTLY for bedroom, producer gives you no guarantee in case of other use:)
'делить': Мы разделили деньги на пятерых.
I gues it's not all...

[pzrk.livejournal.com]

1. Short adjectives (краткие прилагательные) are used as a predicate (сказуемое).
2. These are exact equivalents of a gerund form - "делая что-то" ("while doing something")
3. Oh, drinking... Looks like you haven't experienced it yet (once you do, you'll get it), so assume that "за %s" means "honoring %s" for the first time.

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

@how do you difference when to use them all since some are followed by the same case. Which instances would you choose one over the other and how do you really know for sure?@

The knowledge of a native speaker differs from the knowledge of someone studying the language as an adult. We know, but only the tiny minority can explain why we choose this or that form. The knowledge of a mother tongue is implicit.

For example, how do you know which muscles to contract when you lift your arm? Can you say why you choose this muscle over that one? Unless you've studied anatomy formally, you wouldn't be able to answer this question. Yet we lift arms several times per day.

Another example: for tens of thousand of years people knew that everything falls down to earth. Yet they had no idea about gravity till only several centuries ago.

[vovanium.livejournal.com]

1. As already said, short form used as a predicate. But there's also nuance. Long and short forms are used as a predicate and have sligtly different sense. Long form is mostly neutral:
Эта порода дерева тяжёлая (means that one distinguish heavy and light sorts of wood).
But short form is more expressive and means excess or very high degree:
Эта ноша тяжела для меня (This load is too heavy to me)
Широка страна моя родная... (from Soviet song: means that country is really huge)

[oryx_and_crake]

для кого, для чего - genitive case
купить книгу для дочери

за кого, за что - accusative
выпить за здоровье (чье), выпить за победу

на кого, на что - accusative
положить книгу на стол, положить книгу на (другую) книгу
However, this last example will not be using "for" in English. Actually, there is no universal rule for prepositions and no one-to-one correspondence between Russian prepositions and English ones. You will just have to memorize what goes with what. I am sorry but there is no other way to do that.

[oryx_and_crake]

>>I know when to use для when it's followed by чего

This does not make a lot of sense to me. You use для both with кого and чего, there is no difference. In the former case the object is animate, and in the latter, inanimate. Could you possibly rephrase the question?

[xxblackxsatinxx.livejournal.com]

It is slightly vague. I apologize. What I meant was, I don't know when to difference between для and за when they're both followed by кого. I understand how to use для when it's followed by чего. :)

[oryx_and_crake]

There is really not a big difference between для чего and для кого. But для and за are different prepositions, with different meaning, requiring different cases etc. You should not try to understand them together, it will only confuse you.

E.g.
Я купила книгу для дочери - I bought a book for my daughter.
Я купила палатку для поездки - I bought a tent for my hiking trip.

As to за, it requires a different case, not genitive, like для, but accusative.

Вышла замуж за кого? За Джона. Married whom? John.
Выполнила эту работу за кого? За Джейн. She did this work instead of whom? Instead of Jane.
Выпили за кого? За Мэри. They drank for whom? For Mary.
Выпили за что? За победу. They drank for what? For the victory.
Спряталась за что? За дерево. Hid behind what? Behind a tree.

Hope this helps.

[icamel.livejournal.com]

'Для' most often stands for 'meant to', 'за' could be 'instead of' or 'behind of': Его приняли за ревизора, остаешься за главного or Он спрятался за отца, выйти замуж за капитана.

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

The choice of preposition is governed by the verb, not by the object and its case. So, with some actions you use "за" (бороться за мир, to fight for peace; я сделаю это за вас, I'll do it in your stead), with other you use "для" (я сделаю это для вас, I'll do it for you). Some combinations of verb + prepositions should be regarded as phrasal verbs: делать для and делать за - meaning is slightly different.

[ohar.livejournal.com]

About "богата" vs. "богатая" you can read in russian here: http://lib.ru/PROZA/USPENSKIJ_L/slovo.txt_with-big-pictures.html

You need in "ЧТО ЭТО ТАКОЕ?" part of that book.

[arilita.livejournal.com]

The preposition 'на' is translated as 'for' when talking of time periods (likely upcoming).
Я уезжаю на десять дней = I'm leaving for ten days.

However, 'на' has plenty of other variants of translation, depending on how it's used.
Книга лежит на полке = The book lies [up]on the shelf.
Положи книгу на полку = Put the book onto the shelf (although on/upon should also work)

Ехать на поезде = Ride on a train (probably).
Путеществовать на поезде = Travel by train. (here "Путешествовать поездом" should be more literate, and maybe in some cases that one is interchangeable with the one above)

Делить на ноль = Divide by zero.
Делить на части = Divide [in]to parts.

Those two used to drive me mad in our English lessons:
Человек на картине = A man in(or on?) the picture.
Посмотрите на картину = Look at the picture.

Русский мир в Интернете !

[pater-leo.livejournal.com]

Смотрите русскоязычные сайты от Австралии и Новой Зеландии до Канады и Чили на сайте
"Русский мир" - http;//russianworld.wikispaces.com