На/в Украине?

[bakedgoods10.livejournal.com]

I've heard a couple different opinions on this topic, and would like to see what the majority of native speakers has to say.

When saying "in Ukraine" does one use the preposition на or в? Originally, in school, I was taught на Украине. However, my senior year, in preparation for a trip there, we were instructed to say в Украине. The explanation was that, Ukrainians, since the fall of the CCCP, have renewed pride for their country, and claim that since it is not an island there is no reason to use на- that it is в Украине. Russians, though, still claim it to be на Украине. However, speaking recently with my host brother from Ukraine, he uses на. So, is what I'm been told about в complete nonsense, or is it a regional thing? My host brother's from Eastern Ukraine, when Russian is still the main language spoken in homes, and Ukrainian is left for official documents only, whereas I've heard the west is all Ukrainian-speaking. Could that be where в comes from?

That's my question to native speakers- do you say на Украине or в Украине? Which country/region are you from and how old are you?

x-posted in linguaphiles

Comments

[ukrknabo.livejournal.com]

I personally think "на Украине" is the only accurate choice.

As a matter of fact, this is a holywar topic.

[koro4ka.livejournal.com]

only НА Украине

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

There's an ongoing holy war on that.

The basic arguments go somewhat like this:

pro-"в": since "на" is used with similarly construed historical names of Russian regions (e.g. на Смоленщине, referring to the Smolensk oblast), using "на Украине" implies a denial of Ukrainian independence.

pro-"на": Ukraine has no claim to the norms of the Russian language, even those concerning its name; "на" is required by the toponymical suffix "-ин-", and "в Украине" is a solecism.

I don't know if it's regional in Ukraine, where the west-east divide somewhat reflects two opposing theories of national identity, but here in Russia, it's entirely political, "в" being used by the (few) people wishing to be politically correct.

off

[zhiharka.livejournal.com]

E.g. - на Аляске.

[changeandchance.livejournal.com]

+1

I had a professor who criticized me no matter which one I used. Just pick one and go with it. You'll never be right, but you'll also never be wrong.

[zhiharka.livejournal.com]

If you are Russian — на Украине.
If you are Ukranian — в Украине.

Аccording to the rules of Russian language — НА is the the only possibility.

West Ukraine is full of nationalistic ideas.

[gnomobile.livejournal.com]

oh don't start this holy war again...)

Zhiharka is absolutely right, if you learn Russian it's always НА. There is no sence in applying Ukranian grammar to Russian.

[dekarmi.livejournal.com]

"В" is also possible according to a recent official explanation made by the Russian linguistic institute. And according to the official doorplate title of Russia's Embassy in Ukraine "Посольство в Украине". http://www.embrus.org.ua/
Besides, statistically, the Russian classical writers of the 19-20 centuries put "В Украине" and "НА Украине" in a ratio of roughly 1 to 3. Including Pushkin.

So, I think both versions are allowable. No holy war. In Kyiv I hear and read "в Украине" much more often than "на Украине". In the spoken Russian language, let alone the written one.

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

Not exactly.

If you are Russian - на Украине.

If your mother tongue is Ukrainian, your Russian is not so good and you want Russian to inherit Ukrainian rules, then you say в Украине.

If you speak Ukrainian - well, that's different and you should use в.

[7-morten.livejournal.com]

НА Украине. It`s like "на окраине".
Russia/Moscow/21.

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

BTW, I was once told, as a suggestion, that this could be what makes Ukrainians so offended with на.

P.S. Russia/Crimea, Petersburg/25.

[andrey-bessonov.livejournal.com]

According to the rules of the Russian language it would be logical to say "в Украине".

But the actual situation is as follows:

I am Russian;
I support the independency of Ukraine;
I say "на Украине" because it's traditional. Don't think it's gonna change in the near future. Tradition is strong, and supported by a lot of people in Russia (not me) for political reasons.

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

According to the rules of the Russian language it would be logical to say "в Украине".

Please elaborate.

[thyeadeschatarr.livejournal.com]

> I support the independency of Ukraine;
>I say "на Украине" because it's traditional. Don't think it's gonna change in the near future. Tradition is strong, and supported by a lot of people in Russia (not me) for political reasons.
Second this

Western Siberia, 26

[zhiharka.livejournal.com]

Besides logic, there's a tradition.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Basically it's just not a linguistic matter -- it's purely political. For much of the history there was only one variant -- "на Украине". But with the rise of Ukrainian nationalism there appeared a desire to distance from an old "imperial" word usage, as nationalists believed that it signified a repressed status of Ukrainians in the Russian Empire and then Soviet Union. Thus "в Украине" was born, and now it basically boils down to the question does the speaker supports Ukrainian nationalism or not.

[em-u.livejournal.com]

на Украине - 24, Siberia (a lot of ethnic Ukrainians live in my hometown)

I guess it does't depend on age, location or political views. It's just a rule. We speak Russian and we must follow the rules.

In school, I was taught that, in English and in German, 'Ukraine' is used with the definite articles. It's rather uncommon for the name of an independent country but hardly conflicts with somebody's renewed pride.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Yes, indeed. I've been told the same about the article, but… (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

"в Украине" is a senseless political demand to change the norm of Russian, originating from Ukraine pseudopatriots. It's always been "на". Yes, it's an exclusion to the usual rule that "на" is used with geographical locations and "в" with political (states). Also, if it's an island-state, then its islandness takes precedence, like "на Кубу". Since it's a natural language and not a construct like, say, esperanto, the rule does not cover 100% of instances. Consider "на Украине" something like an irregular verb or whatever.

[emphiria.livejournal.com]

98% (approximately) Ukrainians say "В Украине". If you want to travel in some country, would be better to say so as say people who lives there.

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

100% Ukrainians are supposed to speak Ukrainian as their mother tongue. If they want it this way - they at the very least have no rights to dictate Russians how to speak Russian.

[alexzzzzz.livejournal.com]

на Украину (I imagine the country)
в Крым (the region)
на Урал (the region)
в Сибирь (the region)
на Кубу (I imagine the country)
в Гренландию (I imagine the island)

I've chosen "на Украине" because of the tradition, but don't care if someone speaks "в".

28, Russia, Ryazan (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ryazan&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=31.509065,56.162109&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Russian+Federation,+Province+of+Ryazan,+%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9+%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3+%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4+%D0%A0%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8C,+Ryazan&z=10)

[alexzzzzz.livejournal.com]

By the way, in Finnish they speak "in Ukraine", "in France", but Russia is an exception - "on Russia" :)

[kegarawashii.livejournal.com]

23, Siberia - I and all the people around me say only "на Украине". That's the norm of the Russian language, even if it's an exclusion to the general rule "в country".

[alan-steel.livejournal.com]

"When saying "in Ukraine" does one use the preposition на or в?"

На is the only acceptable variant. Using "в" shall make you sound unnatural to the majority of russian-speaking people.

"The explanation was that, Ukrainians, since the fall of the CCCP, have renewed pride for their country"

That is a question of politics. I would feel the same way if, say, chinese started to force people call their capital "Бейджин" instead of "Пекин". Or if Russia shall start forcing the English-speakers to pronounce its capital "Moskwa" instead of "Moscow".

But of course, if you can make yourself say "в Украине" while being there it won't hurt.

[dekarmi.livejournal.com]

There is a lot of things in American English that sound "unnatural" to the majority of Britain English speaking people, and vice versa. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences)
But who cares?
For tens of millions of Russian-speaking people of Ukraine it is natural to say "in Ukraine".

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

I strongly believe that it MUST be "на Украине" for the simple reason that the word "Украина" itself means nothing else by "окраина" just in south Russian dialect. The word "окраина" requires preposition "в". That's all. The fact that Украина is now a separate country doesn't destroy the roots of its name. "В Украине" sounds simply innatural in Russian.

A quote from Artemiy Lebedev, a famous Russian designer:

"По-русски правильно писать Таллин (а не Таллинн), Алма-Ата (а не Алматы), Белоруссия (Беларусь - это трактор), поехать на Украину (а не в Украину), независимо от того, что думают по этому поводу жители указанных мест"

Otherwise we should have said "Ландан", "Шикаго", "Мюних" and so on. I don't remember anyone outside exUSSR calling Москва Moskva. Everyone is using whatever is more convenient - Moscow, Moscau, etc. I consider that a normal practice and don't see any reasons why we should make exceptions for Ukraine.

[olga-mukhortova.livejournal.com]

"на Украине" that is Russian language
"в Украине" that is Ukranian language
people mix them because they are very similar in that case. but these are not the variants of Russian, they are from 2 different languages.

[dymytry.livejournal.com]

и здесь хохлосрач :)