На/в Украине?
Oct. 20th, 2009 03:08 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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learn_russianI've heard a couple different opinions on this topic, and would like to see what the majority of native speakers has to say.
When saying "in Ukraine" does one use the preposition на or в? Originally, in school, I was taught на Украине. However, my senior year, in preparation for a trip there, we were instructed to say в Украине. The explanation was that, Ukrainians, since the fall of the CCCP, have renewed pride for their country, and claim that since it is not an island there is no reason to use на- that it is в Украине. Russians, though, still claim it to be на Украине. However, speaking recently with my host brother from Ukraine, he uses на. So, is what I'm been told about в complete nonsense, or is it a regional thing? My host brother's from Eastern Ukraine, when Russian is still the main language spoken in homes, and Ukrainian is left for official documents only, whereas I've heard the west is all Ukrainian-speaking. Could that be where в comes from?
That's my question to native speakers- do you say на Украине or в Украине? Which country/region are you from and how old are you?
x-posted in linguaphiles
When saying "in Ukraine" does one use the preposition на or в? Originally, in school, I was taught на Украине. However, my senior year, in preparation for a trip there, we were instructed to say в Украине. The explanation was that, Ukrainians, since the fall of the CCCP, have renewed pride for their country, and claim that since it is not an island there is no reason to use на- that it is в Украине. Russians, though, still claim it to be на Украине. However, speaking recently with my host brother from Ukraine, he uses на. So, is what I'm been told about в complete nonsense, or is it a regional thing? My host brother's from Eastern Ukraine, when Russian is still the main language spoken in homes, and Ukrainian is left for official documents only, whereas I've heard the west is all Ukrainian-speaking. Could that be where в comes from?
That's my question to native speakers- do you say на Украине or в Украине? Which country/region are you from and how old are you?
x-posted in linguaphiles
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no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 09:38 pm (UTC)As a matter of fact, this is a holywar topic.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 09:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 09:54 pm (UTC)The basic arguments go somewhat like this:
pro-"в": since "на" is used with similarly construed historical names of Russian regions (e.g. на Смоленщине, referring to the Smolensk oblast), using "на Украине" implies a denial of Ukrainian independence.
pro-"на": Ukraine has no claim to the norms of the Russian language, even those concerning its name; "на" is required by the toponymical suffix "-ин-", and "в Украине" is a solecism.
I don't know if it's regional in Ukraine, where the west-east divide somewhat reflects two opposing theories of national identity, but here in Russia, it's entirely political, "в" being used by the (few) people wishing to be politically correct.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 09:59 pm (UTC)If you are Ukranian — в Украине.
Аccording to the rules of Russian language — НА is the the only possibility.
West Ukraine is full of nationalistic ideas.
off
Date: 2009-10-20 10:02 pm (UTC)Re: off
Date: 2009-10-20 10:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 10:06 pm (UTC)Zhiharka is absolutely right, if you learn Russian it's always НА. There is no sence in applying Ukranian grammar to Russian.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 10:23 pm (UTC)I only tried to put into words the idea you have expressed much better .
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 10:31 pm (UTC)Russia/Moscow/21.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 10:40 pm (UTC)Besides, statistically, the Russian classical writers of the 19-20 centuries put "В Украине" and "НА Украине" in a ratio of roughly 1 to 3. Including Pushkin.
So, I think both versions are allowable. No holy war. In Kyiv I hear and read "в Украине" much more often than "на Украине". In the spoken Russian language, let alone the written one.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 11:44 pm (UTC)But the actual situation is as follows:
I am Russian;
I support the independency of Ukraine;
I say "на Украине" because it's traditional. Don't think it's gonna change in the near future. Tradition is strong, and supported by a lot of people in Russia (not me) for political reasons.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 12:11 am (UTC)I had a professor who criticized me no matter which one I used. Just pick one and go with it. You'll never be right, but you'll also never be wrong.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 01:42 am (UTC)If you are Russian - на Украине.
If your mother tongue is Ukrainian, your Russian is not so good and you want Russian to inherit Ukrainian rules, then you say в Украине.
If you speak Ukrainian - well, that's different and you should use в.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 01:44 am (UTC)P.S. Russia/Crimea, Petersburg/25.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 02:02 am (UTC)Please elaborate.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 02:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 03:22 am (UTC)>I say "на Украине" because it's traditional. Don't think it's gonna change in the near future. Tradition is strong, and supported by a lot of people in Russia (not me) for political reasons.
Second this
Western Siberia, 26
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 03:24 am (UTC)В США
В Парагвае
В Новой Зеландии
В Австрии
so
В Украине
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 04:06 am (UTC)I guess it does't depend on age, location or political views. It's just a rule. We speak Russian and we must follow the rules.
In school, I was taught that, in English and in German, 'Ukraine' is used with the definite articles. It's rather uncommon for the name of an independent country but hardly conflicts with somebody's renewed pride.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 04:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 04:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 05:05 am (UTC)Дело не в том, кто как воспринимается, а в том, что традиция в языке есть традиция. И пока ее никто не менял
But according to the rules we have to speak English. A tradition, you know ;)
no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 06:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 06:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 07:17 am (UTC)The article 'die' is still used. So, in German, there is no difference b/n 'Ukraine' (the name of the independent country) and 'Crimea' (the name of the region). Isn't that insulting?