Тот, кто vs. Тот, который

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Can someone please give me a slap to the face as to when I'm supposed to use one over the other? In my essay that was recently corrected (Thank you guys sooo much, btw!)))), I have

"Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди это те, которые занимались одной или двумя вещами."
and later I had
"...мы должны, нет, обязаны превратиться в кого-то, которым гордились бы наши предки и потомки."
which was corrected to
"мы должны, нет, обязаны превратиться в кого-то, кем гордились бы наши предки и потомки."

My question is - WHYYY!? Oy, vey what a headache.

Also, because quite a lot of corrections were made, I ended up writing another paragraph so fill up the 2-page limit. Could someone check that for me, please?

В конце концов, талант нужен всем по эволюционным причинам. Пусть Обломов лежит на диване, никто не выйдёт замуж него. Это называется «естественный отбор». Если все женщины выходили замуж за Обломовов, культура и искусство, всё прекрасное в жизни, вымрут. И за ними это мы стоим в такой очереди.

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

не выйдет (e not ё!) замуж ЗА него

И за ними это мы стоим в такой очереди. - not clear at all, can you rephrase?

and as to your question, I agree with the correction; but I am afraid I cannot explain very well; maybe it happens because те, которые means some particular set of people, and кто-то, кем is an abstract category:

Те люди, которые купили эту посудомоечную машину, не пожалели об этом (people who bought: a concrete set of people)

Тот, кто купит эту посудомоечную машину, не пожалеет (someone or anyone who buys; an abstract set)

or maybe the reaso is just that кто-то and который cannot be combined: it should be either тот, кто (or кто-то, кто) or тот, который

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Well what I was trying to say is something like "And we would be next in line." Meaning that once culture and art become extinct, so do we as a people.

[zveriozha.livejournal.com]

"And we would be next in line."

А за ними последуем и мы.
А после этого настанет и наша очередь.
А потом придет и наш черед.

Or you can express your thought as a question like -

А что ж тогда станет с нами?

[zespri.livejournal.com]

This is very very complex. Consider this:

Те люди, которые купили эту посудомоечную машину, не пожалели об этом
Те, кто купил эту посудомоечную машину, не пожалели об этом
Те, кто купили эту посудомоечную машину, не пожалели об этом
Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди это те, которые занимались одной или двумя вещами
Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди это те, кто занимались одной или двумя вещами
Тот, кто решил задачу, получил хорошую отметку.
Тот, который полнее, отдет с большим вкусом.

All of the above are correct russian sentences. I have difficulties explaining why.

[oryx_and_crake]

May I do some nitpicking?

Те, кто купили эту посудомоечную машину, не пожалели об этом
I am not sure that "те, кто купили" is correct

Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди - это те, которые занимались одной или двумя вещами
Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди - это те, кто занималиcя одной или двумя вещами

You need a dash in both sentences and I am pretty sure that те, кто занимались is wrong.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

>>I am not sure that "те, кто купили" is correct
This usage is correct according to Terence Wade, A Comprehensive Russian Grammar, published by Blackwell, Oxford UK & Cambridge USA, published at 1992, Section 123.4.iii
page 131.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

Look, I'll try to scan the relevant section in next few days (no promises though), I think we can all benefit from reading and/or dscussing it.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

The dash thingy - agreed.

As for занимались/занимался, let me quote Wade. The section is quite long I'll give you only the relevant part.

===[Start Cut]===

When, however, there is a plural antecedent (все or те), кто may take either a singular or plural verb: Все, кто пришёл/пришли на собрание, голосовали за меня. 'Everyone who came to the meeting voted for me.', cf:

Среди тех, кто остался, был Иван Карлович, наш сосед
(Rybakov)
Among those who remained was Ivan Karlovich, our neighbour

and

Те из нас, кто читали стихотворение, были в восторге
Those of us who read the poem were delighted
===[Endt Cut]===

I also looked up Cambridge "Using Russian, a guide to contemporary usage" by Derek Offord, and a few other books, but was unable to locate a related discussion.

[oryx_and_crake]

I deeply distrust non-native speakers in such subtle matters. Can you look up what Rosenthal says on this topic? Среди тех, кто остался sounds fine to me, and Те из нас, кто читали sounds completely weird.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

I was debating looking it up in Rozental, and I thought that it would take to long to find the correct place. I will try and do it tommorow though, now that you've asked.

As for distrust. I read the whole section about usage of который/какой/кто in Wade and I have to admit that there was some (small) parts of the text that didn't make much sense for me. (Such as an assertion that the choice between кто and который may be based on the gender of the releated noun/pronoun. The examples that they were giving while were correct on their own, didn't match the big picture.) So I can see where you are coming from with this distrust. On the other hand people who wrote these books spend lots ann lots of time studying the subject and they are very learned and one has to respect that.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

Oh and another thing. A plural verb as given in examples above sounds a bit unnatural to me too, so I understand you here as well. I just know from prior experince that not everything that sounds wierd is wrong.

For example: "В этой связи" is now a complete and total norm mentioned I think even in the reference dictionary for tv news readers. Nevertherless, i would never say or write that, I'd use "В связи с этим" instead.

Back to our case - this usage may be something that was acceptable some years ago and now is dying out.

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, that might be the case too (dying out). For example, I have seen combinations like "вы женат" and "вы холост" in older books that sound completely weird to a modern ear.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

This is a quote that I found in an (unrelated) chapter of Валгина Н.С.,Розенталь Д.Э.,
Фомина М.И.,Современный русский язык: Учебник / Под редакцией Н.С. Валгиной. - 6-е изд., перераб. и доп.

This is from Alexander Kuprin, Poedinok: Должно быть, все те, кто наблюдали эту сцену извне, поняли ее опасное значение. This is year 1905. So this is difinitely something that at some time was a literary norm.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

Some more quotations.

Eduard Uspensky, Лжедмитрий второй настоящий. 1999. В Московском государстве все устроено так, что преимущественно богатеет царская казна да еще те, кто так или иначе служат ей и пользуются казною.
Josef Brodsky. Исаак и Авраам. 1963. То был обычный скрип рассохшегося дерева, чей возраст дает возможность самому поскрипывать, твердя, что ни к чему ни те, кто вызвать этот звук могли б, ни тот, кто мог расслышать этот возглас.
Josef Brodsky. Венецианские строфы. 1982. Те, кто бессмертен, пахнут водорослями, отличаясь от вообще людей, голубей отрывая от сумасшедших шахмат на торцах площадей.
Michail Bulgakov. Мастер и Маргарита. 1934. Сверху Маргарите те, кто находились непосредственно под нею, казались безногими.
Michail Bulgakov. Белая гвардия. 1924. Те, кто бегут, те умирать не будут, кто же будет умирать?
Ivan Efremov. Час быка. 1968. Учитель молча наклонил голову. - А те, кто вернулись?


I rest my case. =)

[oryx_and_crake]

I still don't like it and won't use it :-P

[zespri.livejournal.com]

To wrap up:
- Usage of singular verb in this case is mainstream
- Usage of plural verb is also possible, however much less frequent
- For a lerner of russian it's advisable, to always use singular in this case, this way you'll never go wrong, and don't have the risk to sound "unnatural", and in most cases you will sound unnatural if you use plural here.
- However it's good to be aware the plural usage, because it can occure in literature, even well known writers use it when they see fit.

[oryx_and_crake]

sorry, the last one should be те, кто занималСЯ, not занималИСЯ

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

I think nothing bad will happen if I use the nominative case here. It's somewhat easier to work with... Thinking along your lines I decided to construct a bunch of sentences using different combinations of "2 variables":
01.+ Кто-то, кто рисует...
02.+ Тот, кто рисует...
03.? Тот человек, кто рисует...
04.- Человек, кто рисует...
05.? Он, кто рисует...
06.- Кто-то, что рисует...
07.? Тот, что рисует...
08.+ Тот человек, что рисует...
09.+ Человек, что рисует...
10.- Он, что рисует...
11.- Кто-то, который рисует...
12.? Тот, который рисует...
13.+ Тот человек, который рисует...
14.+ Человек, который рисует...
15.? Он, который рисует...

Correct are marked as +

Questionable:
3. this one is between 8 and 4 and is incorrect but IMO it doesn't sound wrong enough hence I make it questionable,
7. the subject required for тот may be omitted (it can be in another sentence),
12. same as 7
5. may actually sometimes be seen in literature, but otherwise it's nowhere to be found
15. same as 5

Wrong:
4. there're two subjects effectively and one of the two is redundant and confusing, so, there must be just one,
6. что sounds as if it was associated with the object being drawn (not subject, the drawer) in a question,
10. same as 6
11. sounds wrong and here's probably why...

который can only be used with nouns (человек, который; тот (человек), который) and never pronouns (он, который; кто-то, который).

что, although being sometimes interchangable with который, becomes confusing if the subject is represented as a pronoun (кто-то, что; он, что). It begs for a question, not a statement, it feels redundant and out of place in a statement. Hence что isn't used with pronouns either.

So, что and который seem to be effectively used the same way: never with a pronoun, but fine with nouns.

кто... кто is a pronoun itself and hence it isn't used with other pronouns (for the same reasons as above) but we have a pair of notable exceptions: кто-то, кто and тот, кто. In here, I guess, кто is a part of a bigger compound pronoun. All these кто-то, кто; тот, кто; что-то, что and то, что can never be split into individual parts (тот человек, который and то пальто, что wouldn't count as counterexample here because they do have a noun in them).

That's my thinking.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Wow, thanks a lot! This really helps!

[zveriozha.livejournal.com]

Если все женщины будут выходить замуж за ОбломовЫХ, всё прекрасное в жизни, вымрET.

Or -

Если БЫ все женщины выходили замуж за ОбломовЫХ, всё прекрасное в жизни, вымерЛО БЫ.

[oryx_and_crake]

By the way, I was testing the new toy (comment text search) and found this which I believe will be very useful for you:

http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/407758.html?thread=6109134&format=light#t6109134

In short, I don't recommend you to use Russian obscenities (including, but not limited to, мат) in anything official (writing papers, speaking to your professors) at all because you don't feel the level of obscenity (yet; hopefully you will get it eventually) and will sound either offending or ridiculous.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

That's odd, it says that profanity is less acceptable in Russian society, but why? Russians have so much more to curse about than the Americans.

Not to mention, the only reason why I want to learn what situations they use it in is so that I can understand my Russian male friends when they speak. And I say them every once in a while to make sure I'm using it in the right context.

[oryx_and_crake]

Here's a rule of thumb: with Russian male friends it is OK; with everybody else (and anywhere in writing) it is not. This way you will never go wrong.

[zveriozha.livejournal.com]

As Oryx and Crake stated before, Russian mat and English 4-letter words - two different stories. It's not the same thing.

[cassandraclue.livejournal.com]

maybe i am old-fashioned, but while i don't have a problem with cursing in english at all, if a russian guy used a lot of mat when we first met i would see him as a very unclassy guy who did not respect women. i dated my boyfriend for six months before he felt comfortable enough to even teach me mat, despite the fact that he uses a lot of curse words when he speaks to me in english.

i would definitely never use it in anything for school! ШОК!

[cassandraclue.livejournal.com]

but i would like to add that i think knowing mat is absolutely essential to understanding the way at least young russians speak.

[arashi-opera.livejournal.com]

I think it's somehow the combination of cases. Instrumental after accusative never works with "которым", only "кем/чем". But to be frank, I don't know myself why.

[serpent-849.livejournal.com]

I think so too. Maybe который can only be in the nominative in sentences like that??

[arashi-opera.livejournal.com]

Yeah, looks like it. Кто is case-changeable but который is not.

[alex-mashin.livejournal.com]

It was corrected 'cause "кто-то, кто" is correct and "кто-то, который" isn't. It might be similar to "that" and "which".

[arashi-opera.livejournal.com]

Кто-то, который is correct. Кто-то, которым - isn't. =)

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

"Кто-то, который" does not sound right to me at all.

[arashi-opera.livejournal.com]

Maybe but grammarically it's equal to кто-то, кто. "Кто-то, которому было очень невтёрпеж, ломился в дверь". %) "Я внушил себе, что справа всегда идёт кто-то, который внимательно слушает". "Кто-то, который был ему явно не друг..." Etc.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_izum_/]

"Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди -(dash(тире)!) это те, которые занимались одной или двумя вещами."
But anyway, we never speak in Russia like this.
"to do one or two thing." is too much abstract.
If I were you, I'd write like that:
"Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди - это те, которые занимаются хотя бы одной деятельностью, а, нередко, и двумя."
But it is also not good.
"Всем известно, что среди величайших в мире людей нет ни одного бездельника, все они, по крайней мере, занимались одной, а, нередко, даже и двумя видами деятельности."
Good Luck.

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

Are you sure you ungerstanded the sentence right? I thought the author means that the greatest people do _not more_ than 2 things.

[oryx_and_crake]

You misunderstood the original sentence completely.