Phrase from Crime and Punishment

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

Hello!
In my search for gerunds in Prestuplenie i Nakazanie, I stumbled upon this phrase "Пятнадцать  копеек  в   день,   сударь,   не заработает, если честна и не имеет особых талантов, да и то рук не покладая работавши." Now, since I'm analysing Swedish translation of gerunds, I have the Swedish translation at hand, and know roughly what it means, though I don't fully grasp the meaning of "работавши" here, I've heard "работать не покладая рук" before, but not with said perfective gerund after it. Or is "работавши" not part of the phrase, and it simply relates back to the sentence, thus "She wouldn't earn 15 kopeek a day, sir, if she is honest and doesn't possess any particular talents, and (even?) then she wouldn't have a moment's rest working" or something? I'm not a native English speaker, so I'm not used to translating into English, so forgive me. So yes, I would be extremely thankful if someone could explain this for me! :)

Pelle

Comments

[voffk.livejournal.com]

работавши just sets past tense for the "работать не покладая рук"
Let's consider that "работать не покладая рук" = work very hard

Then the would sentence could be translated as
"She will not earn 15 kopeek a day, sir, if she is honest and doesn't posses any particular talents, and even if she worked hard"

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I don't understand though, why could it not be рук не покладая работала for example or, rather, работает, seeing as the rest of the sentence is in present tense (or future)? Plus, isn't работать imperfective, thus making заработав the gerund? Also, is the gerund perfective so as to point out that its real meaning is "future"? Or have I misunderstood its meaning here? Sorry to be a pain, thank you for your help again! :) I'm just so confused!

[oryx_and_crake]

работавши=работая

The sentence structure requires a gerund because there is a predicate already (не заработает)
it can be rephrased as follows: не заработает пятнадцати копеек в день, даже работая не покладая рук. You an replace it with будет работать though: не заработает пятнадцати копеек в день, даже если будет работать не покладая рук. As to why the author decided to use работавши and not если будет работать, it's up to the author to decide how to construct the characters' speech. если будет работать vs. работавши sounds longer and more bookish.

[msk01.livejournal.com]

Работавши is an archaism. Modern form is "работая" (is working)

"она не заработает и 15 копеек, работавши (работая) не покладая рук" = she wouldn't earn 15 kopeek, even if she's working very hard.
Yes, your translation is quite good.

[stephan-nn.livejournal.com]

работавши = работав, isn't it?

[msk01.livejournal.com]

It could be, but not in this case.

Работав - it's only for the past tense.
"Она немного зарабатывала, работав там".
"She earned not so much, when she worked there".
You may say "Она немного зарабатывала, работавши там".

But in the first part of the sentence there is a future tense "не заработает" (she will not earn), so when you say "Она не много заработает, работавщи там" ("she will not earn so much if she will work there"), you should "modernize it" as present participle "работая там".

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for your comments! It's all clear now, I'd completely forgotten that работавши is the old form of работая! Thanks!

[marta-mb.livejournal.com]

работавши is the old form of работая
This is wrong. The first one is the past participle active (gerund). The 2nd one is present.

[marta-mb.livejournal.com]

рук не покладая работавши. работавши
I think grammatically it's 'having been working.'
And I don't think it has to do with gerunds. It's the active past participle used predicatively far as I understand, though I may be wrong. In Swedish there is no corresponding pattern. In this case you probably could have said "bara om hon hade arbetat utan avbrott".
Lycka till Pelle!

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

I toyed with the idea that it's a predicative short form (?), it could make sense if you relate it to the other short form adjective in the sentence (честна). It does make more sense as a gerund though, in my opinion. Also, the thing about "having been working", is that my thesis has as its objective do decipher this into "normal" Swedish, where "havande arbetat" would be ruled out, and thus I have to find other ways to translate it, for example "även om hon skulle arbeta...".

[marta-mb.livejournal.com]

'havande arbetat' -- is this normal Swedish? (me being not a native speaker of Swedish)
"även om hon skulle arbeta..." makes more sense though actually the original looks like "även om hon skulle ha arbetat"

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

Ah, I thought you were a native speaker, but no, "havande arbetat" would more resemble very archaic language, it's possible, but it just wouldn't work in a normal, present-day context. "även om hon skulle arbeta" to me sounds better in the future form they use through out, since future seems to be implied.

[oryx_and_crake]

работавши is also quite archaic, as this form in general is not used any more.
I remember my grandmother saying не емши, разумши, раздемши (from есть, разуться, раздеться)

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

Ah, this is true. I guess the Swedish form would actually be taking the archaic form to almost comical proportions. Oh how I love gerunds. :D

[marta-mb.livejournal.com]

Поздравляю вас, гражданин, соврамши! is another example.

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

What does that mean exactly? I think I've heard something similar around...

[marta-mb.livejournal.com]

I don't know myself.

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

Literally, "Congratulations, sir, on just having lied!"
a quote from "Мастер и Маргарита", М.А.Булгаков

words of Koroviev addressed to Bengalsky the entertainer.

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

I thought I recognised it! I know it's maybe supposed to be comical, but I can't help but thinking...should the gerund not relate back to the subject here, or does вас count as a logical subject?

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

yes, it should, and no, it does not.
it is a common mistake, used to create a comical effect. Compare to similar Chekhov's "подъезжая к станции, у меня упала шляпа".

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

Aaah! I see! Haha. I should use that example in my thesis!

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

be careful, though - these two quotes are classics.
however, intentionally violating the rules in this case you risk either being misunderstood by purists or the effect will be completely missed with the lesser educated public.

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

Ah! I might do a section only though, of how translators should be wary of the "comical" use of gerunds. How does that sound?

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

not sure...
this intentional misuse of gerund is just one little stroke out of a whole palette designed to paint an overall image of a jester in Bulgakov's case and a simpleton in Chekhov.
too minute to be a topic of a report, but quite worthy of been noted next to other literary devices.

[stephan-nn.livejournal.com]

I think, работавши is not работая, but работав...

[pticeryba.livejournal.com]

Hej Pelle,
om du behöver hjälp i dina ryska studier och samtidigt vill hjälpa en rysktalande person i svenska studier - kolla här, kanske är det något för dig:

http://community.livejournal.com/ru_sverige/269179.html

[krasnojarsk.livejournal.com]

Aah, tack, jag ska gå med där! :)

[oryx_and_crake]

Ahem. I hate to remind that the working language of this community is English. Swedish does not count as English. Thank you for your understanding.

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

It IS in Latin alphabet, though, isn't it? ))