Diminutives again

[marta-mb.livejournal.com]

It occurred to me that diminutives in modern Russian may be used to give a tincture of definiteness or add the meaning of the limited amount to the respective noun. For example you can say:
Дай мне хлебушка и маслица.
This means 'Give me bread [+diminutive] and butter [+diminutive]'
Why not interpret this as 'Give me SOME bread and SOME butther', i.e. not bread in general, but some small amount. The last idea is expressed by the diminutive suffix.
What are your views on this?

Comments

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

It would be "Дай мне хлебушку и маслицу" wouldn't it? I believe you are right in translating the diminutive forms to "a little bit of" or "some of" in this context.

[oiseau-russe.livejournal.com]

no, it's хлебушка и маслица

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"Батюшка" may indeed mean "dear father", and "матушка" is possibly better rendered as "dear mother", but one would be hard put to argue that "хлебушка и маслица" should be "dear bread and dear butter" - certainly not by default. While one may wish to speak literally and thus say "маленький кусочек хлеба и капельку масла", i.e. "a small piece of bread and bit of butter", in terms of figurative speech the English "some bread and some butter" would, I think, be the better translation for the equally figurative "хлебушка и маслица".

[oiseau-russe.livejournal.com]

was this an answer for me?

[oryx_and_crake]

No, this is wrong. The suffixes in хлебушка and маслица express exactly this - tenderness (however, it can be tenderness towards the person(s) to whom your speech is addressed, e.g. it is quite common to speak in that way to a child). Of course it is not "dear bread", but it means that you a) have a warm and/or happy feeling towards this particular bread and butter or water or whatever (maybe you are just happy that you are going to eat at last after a long period of starvation) or b) humiliating yourself, e.g. begging in the street, to make your appeal more humble, or c) you are an old and dotty babushka who uses hypocoristics towards everything and everyone. (There may be other cases, this is just what sprang to mind immediately). Those suffixes do not mean that you ask for "some" - this meaning is expressed by the partitive case.

[oryx_and_crake]

1. No, it is хлебушка and маслица; this is so-called partial case; I believe French have it too in constructions like "donnez-moi du pain"; it is used when you ask to give you some quantity of a substance, e.g. Дай мне воды (give me SOME water) as opposed to Дай мне воду (which would be translated as "give me this, previously known, amount of water in some kind of previously known receptacle"); or Дай мне хлеба ("Give me some bread") vs. Дай мне хлеб ("Give me this loaf of bread")

2. No, diminutives do not work that way.

[astraea2728.livejournal.com]

is this the genitive case you are using for "some" then?

[oryx_and_crake]

yes

[oryx_and_crake]

No, diminutives do not work that way. If you want to emphasize that you want a small amount you have to say so. E.g.
Дай мне маленький кусочек хлеба и капельку масла.

[oryx_and_crake]

It occurred to me that it is in fact the word "diminutive" that is misleading in this case. It is rather hypocoristic (meaning "affectionate") than diminutive here. Most of the time the same suffix works for both purposes and is called "уменьшительно-ласкательный" (diminutive/hypocoristic). By the way, the funniest mistakes caused by mixing up the two: e.g. some books claim that the Russian word батюшка means "little father" (or матушка "little mother"), ostensibly based upon the fact that there is a diminutive suffix in it.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

+1

[vargtimmen.livejournal.com]

"Abuelita" would be insulting in Spanish if this were not true. :)

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

I guess you are right in a way. But the "partial" effect may be due to your "polite" way of expressing yourself: you are using diminutives => you're being polite, not aggressive => you are humbly asking for some, rather than demanding all.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I am sorry, but this is quite wrong. How polite is the [Russian fairy tales character] Solovei Razboinik when claiming that he is going to drink Christian blood? ("уж я кровушки попью христианской!")

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

Byliny language is kinda different. Everything is either augmentative (идолище поганое)or diminutive (шляпонька пуховая). Clicheed (?), too. I think in the situation of contemporary usage, the diminutive in polite request being kinda equal to partitive, that may be a good hypothesis to test.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

But this is not diminutive at all, that's what the problem is. Russian suffixes of that sort have two meanings, diminutive and hypocoristic (their very name is уменьшительно-ласкательные), and this is exactly the latter.

[wire-shock.livejournal.com]

By the way, the phrase that marta_mb was asking about is not a normal instance of contemporary Russian usage. It's either from a fairy tale or made up to look like it.

[oryx_and_crake]

You are mixing up two unrelated things here. The fact that I am asking for some quantity (not all of it) is expressed by the case, not by the suffix. If I say "дай мне хлебушек" or "отдавай мне денежки" I will still be asking for all bread or money there is, no matter how many diminutive suffixes I am using.

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

If you say "дай мне хлебушек" or "отдавай мне денежки" holding someone at gunpoint, wouldn't it sound a bit sarcastic? that is, contrary to the literal meaning of your word? I guess the use of diminutives/hypocoristics does imply some degree of politeness.

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

And you are right, the Gen. case carries the meaning of the partitive construction. But it's still interesting if, why, and how the partitive and the politeness are related.

[zhp.livejournal.com]

Diminutive suffixes in the sentence you gave do not carry the idea of "some". In fact, if you say, "Дай мне хлеба и масла" (the same sentence, only without the diminutives), it would mean exactly the same thing - give me some bread and some butter. The idea of "some" comes from the use of the Genetive case. If you use those words in the Accusative case - Дай мне хлебушек и маслице; Дай мне хлеб и масло - it would mean that you are asking for the particular amount of bread and butter that you see, or all the bread and butter that you have. The translation would be "Give me the bread and the butter".

[gera.livejournal.com]

It means begging as opposed to a request (like "pretty please").

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

+1

[oryx_and_crake]

Is that begging as in "beggar", someone panhandling in the streets? That's possible. In ordinary life I would not recommend using "хлебушек", "маслице" etc. Well, some people may think it a sign of politeness but in fact, as zhp indicated, the excessive use of diminutives is just plain bad taste.

[r-lara.livejournal.com]

"хлебушка и маслица" is not about amount. It's about how one "feels" toward the object, i. e. affection. For example "морковочка" is not little carrot, but a "lively" carrot.