Diminutives again

[marta-mb.livejournal.com]

It occurred to me that diminutives in modern Russian may be used to give a tincture of definiteness or add the meaning of the limited amount to the respective noun. For example you can say:
Дай мне хлебушка и маслица.
This means 'Give me bread [+diminutive] and butter [+diminutive]'
Why not interpret this as 'Give me SOME bread and SOME butther', i.e. not bread in general, but some small amount. The last idea is expressed by the diminutive suffix.
What are your views on this?

Comments

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

It would be "Дай мне хлебушку и маслицу" wouldn't it? I believe you are right in translating the diminutive forms to "a little bit of" or "some of" in this context.

[oiseau-russe.livejournal.com]

no, it's хлебушка и маслица

[oryx_and_crake]

No, diminutives do not work that way. If you want to emphasize that you want a small amount you have to say so. E.g.
Дай мне маленький кусочек хлеба и капельку масла.

[oryx_and_crake]

1. No, it is хлебушка and маслица; this is so-called partial case; I believe French have it too in constructions like "donnez-moi du pain"; it is used when you ask to give you some quantity of a substance, e.g. Дай мне воды (give me SOME water) as opposed to Дай мне воду (which would be translated as "give me this, previously known, amount of water in some kind of previously known receptacle"); or Дай мне хлеба ("Give me some bread") vs. Дай мне хлеб ("Give me this loaf of bread")

2. No, diminutives do not work that way.

[oryx_and_crake]

It occurred to me that it is in fact the word "diminutive" that is misleading in this case. It is rather hypocoristic (meaning "affectionate") than diminutive here. Most of the time the same suffix works for both purposes and is called "уменьшительно-ласкательный" (diminutive/hypocoristic). By the way, the funniest mistakes caused by mixing up the two: e.g. some books claim that the Russian word батюшка means "little father" (or матушка "little mother"), ostensibly based upon the fact that there is a diminutive suffix in it.

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

I guess you are right in a way. But the "partial" effect may be due to your "polite" way of expressing yourself: you are using diminutives => you're being polite, not aggressive => you are humbly asking for some, rather than demanding all.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

+1

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I am sorry, but this is quite wrong. How polite is the [Russian fairy tales character] Solovei Razboinik when claiming that he is going to drink Christian blood? ("уж я кровушки попью христианской!")

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

Byliny language is kinda different. Everything is either augmentative (идолище поганое)or diminutive (шляпонька пуховая). Clicheed (?), too. I think in the situation of contemporary usage, the diminutive in polite request being kinda equal to partitive, that may be a good hypothesis to test.

[vargtimmen.livejournal.com]

"Abuelita" would be insulting in Spanish if this were not true. :)

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

But this is not diminutive at all, that's what the problem is. Russian suffixes of that sort have two meanings, diminutive and hypocoristic (their very name is уменьшительно-ласкательные), and this is exactly the latter.

[zhp.livejournal.com]

Diminutive suffixes in the sentence you gave do not carry the idea of "some". In fact, if you say, "Дай мне хлеба и масла" (the same sentence, only without the diminutives), it would mean exactly the same thing - give me some bread and some butter. The idea of "some" comes from the use of the Genetive case. If you use those words in the Accusative case - Дай мне хлебушек и маслице; Дай мне хлеб и масло - it would mean that you are asking for the particular amount of bread and butter that you see, or all the bread and butter that you have. The translation would be "Give me the bread and the butter".

[oryx_and_crake]

You are mixing up two unrelated things here. The fact that I am asking for some quantity (not all of it) is expressed by the case, not by the suffix. If I say "дай мне хлебушек" or "отдавай мне денежки" I will still be asking for all bread or money there is, no matter how many diminutive suffixes I am using.

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

If you say "дай мне хлебушек" or "отдавай мне денежки" holding someone at gunpoint, wouldn't it sound a bit sarcastic? that is, contrary to the literal meaning of your word? I guess the use of diminutives/hypocoristics does imply some degree of politeness.

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

And you are right, the Gen. case carries the meaning of the partitive construction. But it's still interesting if, why, and how the partitive and the politeness are related.

[oryx_and_crake]

It will be sarcastic indeed but there won't be even a slightest hint of politeness in it.

[oryx_and_crake]

I don't think that partitive and politeness are related. Partitive conveys the meaning of "part" - you could ask for water rudely "Воды дай, кому говорю!" or you could ask for it politely "Дай, пожалуйста, воды" - you will still be using the same case. If you say "дай воду", the meaning will be different and again this change of meaning is not related to the degree of politeness.

[gera.livejournal.com]

It means begging as opposed to a request (like "pretty please").

[r-lara.livejournal.com]

"хлебушка и маслица" is not about amount. It's about how one "feels" toward the object, i. e. affection. For example "морковочка" is not little carrot, but a "lively" carrot.

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

It will be sarcastic BECAUSE it will be contrary to the inner form that implies politeness.

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

You can say "Дай, пожалуйста, воды", but in some situations it will sound better if you say "Дай, пожалуйста, водички", don't you think?

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

+1

[oryx_and_crake]

"воды" and "водички" are both in partitive, so I don't exactly understand your point here. In both cases you ask for SOME water.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"Батюшка" may indeed mean "dear father", and "матушка" is possibly better rendered as "dear mother", but one would be hard put to argue that "хлебушка и маслица" should be "dear bread and dear butter" - certainly not by default. While one may wish to speak literally and thus say "маленький кусочек хлеба и капельку масла", i.e. "a small piece of bread and bit of butter", in terms of figurative speech the English "some bread and some butter" would, I think, be the better translation for the equally figurative "хлебушка и маслица".

[zhp.livejournal.com]

Erm... No. It's a matter of taste and personal preference, and there are quite a few people who would say that using those affectionate/diminutive forms is tacky, regardless of the situation. The use of this froms depends a lot on the characteristics of the speaker- whether they are male or female, how old they are, etc.