Aberrant instances of accusative case

[llz.livejournal.com]

Hi guys,

First a brief introduction. I started learning Russian and joined this community late in high school, around 2004, in the US where I'm from. Now I am doing a European Masters program in conference interpreting.. yes from Russian (and Spanish) into English :) I want to thank this community for all its help and give encouragement to everyone learning (which I still am!) I never thought I'd get to this point. The road to fluency is long, but you can do it!

Now down to business. There are some unusual forms of accusative case I never properly learned and not sure how to Google them:

Это их иллюзия, которая разбивается о реальную жизнь.
Они бьются головой об стену. (I recalled this from memory, might be wrong.)

I surmise that "о + (object in accusative case)" means beating against something but would like a more official explanation.

And:

У меня не с кем разговаривать под бокал вино.
Мы танцевали до утра под рок-музыку.

Here I can guess that "под + (object in accusative case)" loosely means "with the accompaniment of _____ setting the milieu"

I have another question about imperfect vs. perfect verbs but will save that for another post.

Thanks in advance.

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

под бокал винА (под что? - accusative, бокал чего? - genitive)

I think your understanding of this usage of the accusative is correct. Not sure if this answers your question - please ask on if you need more specifics. I am not sure if there could be any 'official explanation'.

[llz.livejournal.com]

Strange, I could've sworn it didn't decline. Thanks.

[oryx_and_crake]

вино declines like any other word of this paradigm (вина, вину, вином, о вине etc.)

[freakyzoid.livejournal.com]

There are words with the last stressed "o" that do not decline: пальто, кино, домино, метро, авто. But вино does decline, maybe beacuse it was borrowed earlier and got more adapted in the language.

[larqui.livejournal.com]

Accusative + preposition о/об/обо describes the situation of "dynamic contact" (ref. A. V. Plungyan). The noun in the accusative is basically an element of this situation directed at the subject of action.

Usually, it's an obstacle, something you stumble upon, beat against, crush against etc.


As for you second question, first of all, this
У меня не с кем разговаривать под бокал вино.

should be - Мне не с кем разговаривать под бокал вина.

Accusative + под can have a meaning of indicating the circumstances of the main action.

Hope it helps.

[alex-mashin.livejournal.com]

О + acc. = against, but in the sense of beating.
= with--sharpen,
= at--scratch [oneself],
= (none)rub oneself.

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

Why the English lesson?

[alex-mashin.livejournal.com]

These are possible translations.

[freakyzoid.livejournal.com]

I believe your understanding is quite correct.
There are actually not many verbs used with о/об/обо + accusative. Here can be some more examples:
Вытирать руки об себя (о свою одежду). Wipe one's hands on oneself (their own clothes).
Споткнуться о камень. Stumble upon a stone.
Биться как рыба об лед. Be like a fish hitting ice - means to struggle with no result. Close to the expression биться головой о стену.
Also compare Разбить вазу камнем (to break the vase with a stone) and Разбить вазу о камень (to hit the vase against a stone and break it or drop the vase on a stone so that it breaks).

Под + accusative implies that something gives us context or accompanies other actions.
Под водку хорошо идут соленые огурцы. Pickles are good with vodka.
Он уснул под телевизор. He fell asleep with the TV on.
Под этот разговор я закончила работу. During this conversation I finished my work.
Под песни работать легче. Thу songs make work easier.
... and so on

By the way, your Russian is really good (I've read some of your blog). I imagine you've been working hard. And a lot.

[llz.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the additional examples, they're quite illustrative! Especially the ваза one.

Thanks, mastering Russian has really become my дело всей жизни. Sometimes I like to joke, I don't need an abusive boyfriend when I have the Russian language ;)

I enjoy your entries, have friended you from my more public account chantazh

[freakyzoid.livejournal.com]

Glad I could be of some help.
That is very nice of you, I'll friend you back.

[r-w.livejournal.com]

I would say "об" is a colloquial form if there is no following vowel. We can even ape those low-colloquial forms: "об чём", "об нём". On the other hand, one can say "о стену, о стекло, о землю (hence Оземь)", and it would be more noble and literary.
However, "как о(б) стен(к)у горох" и "как рыба об лёд" are idioms with almost obligatory "об".

[freakyzoid.livejournal.com]

you may have replied to me about that by mistake, because I didnt say anything about the use of "о" and "об". But I was thinking about that, so it might not be a mistake at all :) Also, I don't see any other comment about that.
Anyway, although it is preferable to say "о" instead of "об" in most cases, there are some words that don't go with "o". Like "об пол".
I believe that idioms have this obligatory "об" because spoken language of simple people is the origin of most idioms and proverbs. Then they just become cliche and are used as they are.

[r-w.livejournal.com]

Not only thinking, you were typing, actually:
There are actually not many verbs used with о/об/обо + accusative.

[freakyzoid.livejournal.com]

Yes, I did type that, but I didn't quite mean the difference between о and об with different nouns, pronouns and cases.
I just meant that о + accusative refers to someting moving toward some other object and interacting with it in a specific way. Not many actions are performed in such a manner, and I really can't think of more than those already mentioned in this discussion.

UPD: This conversation seems to have inspired me, and I managed to think of one more verb with a meanung that has not been mentioned. Облокотиться о перила. To lean one's elbows on a railing.

[r-w.livejournal.com]

1a. ***Мне не с кем (У меня не кем)
1b. "Под бокал вина" = "за бокалом вина" = while drinking wine. There's also a common expression "под водочку" (vodka). "Под водочку (под винцо, под пИво/пивкО) и разговор завязался".
2. You are right: "Плясали под Мадонну", "она ушла под аплодисменты зрителей".