По полу

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Well, I will try to limit myself to one question a day in this community. Todays question: "Хоть по полу валяйся". Is it the prepositional case or the dative case? I guess the stress depends on it.

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Comments

[mrmeloman.livejournal.com]

Prepositional will be smth like "поле". This is dative - "полу". Дать комУ? ПолУ.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Нет... "на полУ" is the prepositional, it is an exeption, no?!

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is an exeption, the forms are the same, but this is dative.

D. кому, чему? Полу (По кому, по чему - по полу)
P. на ком, на чём? На полу

In this case, again, I would set the stress on the preposition.

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

The exception to what? :)

Cf. also
по небу


Actually, to check the case you should put the attribute (an adjective): adjectives distinguish between Dat. and Prep. (Locative) unambiguously:

на деревянном полу (Prep)
*на деревянному полу (Dat)

This IS the true grammatical test, though other "tests" are mainly based on the intuition and the meaning, which is more subjective.
Frankly speaking, the test with questions do works in Russian (кому? vs. о ком?) as pronouns happen to be regular substitutions of nouns in some contexts, so the form of a pronoun reflects the form of a noun.
Cf. also relative clauses
Я сижу на полу, на котором лежит ковёр.
Я сижу на полу, на нём грязно. На чём / * чему ты сидишь?

P.S.
You can check the accent in the poetical corpus
http://search.ruscorpora.ru/search.xml?mycorp=&mysent=&mysize=&mysentsize=&dpp=&spp=&spd=&text=lexform&mode=poetic&sort=gr_tagging&ext=10&req=%EF%EE%20%EF%EE%EB%F3
Choose "версия с ударениями".
Some deviations are possible due to the fact that those are poetic texts, but anyway, it shows you how the word is used.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

The word пол is an exception in the prepositional: на полУ. In the dative it is пОлу - regular. That is why i needed to know i thos parti ular case if it was по+dative or по+preposional, in order to put the stress in the right position.

[vovanium.livejournal.com]

It is not really an exception. There's a group of words having two prepositional cases-- objective and locative: лес, мост, снег etc.
Widely used six cases model is oversimplified.

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

Well, there are about 150 such "exceptions" :D
It is called "second prepositional" (второй предложный)

As for po+Dat, cf. щёлкнуть пО носу, гулять по сАду - the accentuation is more interesting than the form, frankly speaking.
"по" requires the dative case. As I have told you, the form of an attribute shows the form precisely.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

The answer to my question was по+dative and the stress is acually on the preposition, as in 'пО фигу':).

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

Dative. I would set the stress on the preposition, по полу.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I am determined to read the whole story vslukh without a single mistake...

Ohhh...

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

May The Force be with you!

Re: Ohhh...

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Зубрить is the only way for a person my age too learn a language. :)

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

So, being somewhat older than you and having no joy in boning up, I have to give up my hopes to learn a couple of languages more?

[oryx_and_crake]

This rhyme (a teasing for snitches) might help to remember the stress

Ябеда, корЯбеда, солёный огурЕц!
ПО полу валЯется, никтО его не Ест!

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Корябеда is from the word корябать?

[oryx_and_crake]

I think it is just a modification of the word ябеда, so it all rhymes together - like "work, schmork", for example

[xxblackxsatinxx.livejournal.com]

If I remember correctly from when we learnt prepositional case in first year, Russian always likes to throw in some exceptions.

If your intention is to use "floor" as location than it's "полу", if you use "поле" (the meaning is different, the location is a field).

Other exceptions are аэропорт, нос, лес... I'm sure there are others. I remember asking my professor if there's any way of knowing but she said it's just a matter of being able to recognize them and also knowing the overall meaning of the sentence (what cases are used for and such. If logically the sentence is expressing location then it's prepositional - not to be confused with direction which is expressed with accusative).

[igorborisov.livejournal.com]

"Валяться" in modern Russian means "лежать развалившись" or "лежать в беспорядке", so correct form is "Хоть на полу валяйся" in prepositional.
But "валяться" in your case is in archaic form which is close to "кататься". It's dative.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[mosopus.livejournal.com]

I have listened to your tape- in my russian opinion-

the word ребятня should be pronounsed as [ребитня], it is a nuance of Russian phonetics i.e. я is pronounced as и when is not stressed; бабушка поколдовываЕт (singular); "хошь"- is an intentionally incorrect and spoken (shortened) variant of хочешь; держит- д should be pronounced palatalised;

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Yeah, I jeard the ют-ending when i listened it through, but I was to lazy to record it again:). Nut it didnt know I said дэржите :). But now when you said it I can hear it. What more did you react on?

[mosopus.livejournal.com]

and another comment on полe-поле-полу.

предложный падеж has 4 prepositions- о, в, на, при.(as you know, this noun case is the only one, that cannot used without preposotions). Prepositions о and при as a rule require "correct" form of the noun- e.g. об аэропортЕ, при аэропортЕ. But the other two- в and на may have so called "second prepositional". Orirginally one used to say "в аэропорте", but then another form emerged "в аэропорту". The latter is step by steps substituting the first one.
As a foreigner, you should know that theoretically both may be seen in the language (native speakers act as they like).

But if you say yourself, you should be aware that some words require dative form only with the preposotions в and на (в носу; во рту; в Крыму; в цеху; в бору; в гробу; на льду- all of them are learned by heart, there is a hint- very often the word is short), in some cases both variants are correct (I may say в аэропорту и (very rarely)в аэропорте (аэропрот derives from the short word порт); в дому (old-fashioned, rural variant), a доме; на дому (when one don't leave its home-flat or is atteneded at his/her home) на доме (meaning on the house-building).
And the rest obeys the general rule.

[mosopus.livejournal.com]

and the last thing- in you question- по полу- дательный падеж. This noun case may have only 2 preposotions к and по.

Однако и тут есть исключения. Поскольку предложный падеж забрал часть слов (в бору, во рту), то и дательный решил отомстить- ряд слов утребляются с предлогом по, но имеют окончание предложного падежа- e.g."по прибытии", "по возвращении" (on the arrival) etc. It may be called exchange

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Wait, was there something wrong with my prononciation of хочешь?

[mosopus.livejournal.com]

It seemed to me that you tried to remake it (хошь) into correct form


And as far as my general opinion is concerned, I must say that you should be relaxed while reading, in this case the non-russian manner (accent) is almost unheard. And when you are ill-in-ease, on feells that this is a foreigner.