По полу

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Well, I will try to limit myself to one question a day in this community. Todays question: "Хоть по полу валяйся". Is it the prepositional case or the dative case? I guess the stress depends on it.

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Comments

[mrmeloman.livejournal.com]

Prepositional will be smth like "поле". This is dative - "полу". Дать комУ? ПолУ.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Нет... "на полУ" is the prepositional, it is an exeption, no?!

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

Dative. I would set the stress on the preposition, по полу.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I am determined to read the whole story vslukh without a single mistake...

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is an exeption, the forms are the same, but this is dative.

D. кому, чему? Полу (По кому, по чему - по полу)
P. на ком, на чём? На полу

In this case, again, I would set the stress on the preposition.

Ohhh...

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

May The Force be with you!

Re: Ohhh...

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Зубрить is the only way for a person my age too learn a language. :)

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

So, being somewhat older than you and having no joy in boning up, I have to give up my hopes to learn a couple of languages more?

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Oh nô! All you need is 10 000 hours of зубрить! I record my self reading it, that way I see the words (visual perception), say the words (motional perception) and hear the word (слух). It really sticks...

[oryx_and_crake]

This rhyme (a teasing for snitches) might help to remember the stress

Ябеда, корЯбеда, солёный огурЕц!
ПО полу валЯется, никтО его не Ест!

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Корябеда is from the word корябать?

[oryx_and_crake]

I think it is just a modification of the word ябеда, so it all rhymes together - like "work, schmork", for example

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

The exception to what? :)

Cf. also
по небу


Actually, to check the case you should put the attribute (an adjective): adjectives distinguish between Dat. and Prep. (Locative) unambiguously:

на деревянном полу (Prep)
*на деревянному полу (Dat)

This IS the true grammatical test, though other "tests" are mainly based on the intuition and the meaning, which is more subjective.
Frankly speaking, the test with questions do works in Russian (кому? vs. о ком?) as pronouns happen to be regular substitutions of nouns in some contexts, so the form of a pronoun reflects the form of a noun.
Cf. also relative clauses
Я сижу на полу, на котором лежит ковёр.
Я сижу на полу, на нём грязно. На чём / * чему ты сидишь?

P.S.
You can check the accent in the poetical corpus
http://search.ruscorpora.ru/search.xml?mycorp=&mysent=&mysize=&mysentsize=&dpp=&spp=&spd=&text=lexform&mode=poetic&sort=gr_tagging&ext=10&req=%EF%EE%20%EF%EE%EB%F3
Choose "версия с ударениями".
Some deviations are possible due to the fact that those are poetic texts, but anyway, it shows you how the word is used.

[xxblackxsatinxx.livejournal.com]

If I remember correctly from when we learnt prepositional case in first year, Russian always likes to throw in some exceptions.

If your intention is to use "floor" as location than it's "полу", if you use "поле" (the meaning is different, the location is a field).

Other exceptions are аэропорт, нос, лес... I'm sure there are others. I remember asking my professor if there's any way of knowing but she said it's just a matter of being able to recognize them and also knowing the overall meaning of the sentence (what cases are used for and such. If logically the sentence is expressing location then it's prepositional - not to be confused with direction which is expressed with accusative).

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

The word пол is an exception in the prepositional: на полУ. In the dative it is пОлу - regular. That is why i needed to know i thos parti ular case if it was по+dative or по+preposional, in order to put the stress in the right position.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

The answer to my question was по+dative and the stress is acually on the preposition, as in 'пО фигу':).

[igorborisov.livejournal.com]

"Валяться" in modern Russian means "лежать развалившись" or "лежать в беспорядке", so correct form is "Хоть на полу валяйся" in prepositional.
But "валяться" in your case is in archaic form which is close to "кататься". It's dative.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[vovanium.livejournal.com]

It is not really an exception. There's a group of words having two prepositional cases-- objective and locative: лес, мост, снег etc.
Widely used six cases model is oversimplified.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

I know. Those words constitute an exception from the usual model of 6 cases , since they have one prepositonal for the spacial meaning and one for the objective meaning. My question was about the specific phrase; "Valjatsya po polu" and wether it might acually be po+prepostional. But it is not, it is po+dative, and the stress is on the prepostion.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

"po nebu" is po+dative, very simple, does not raise any questions. Nebo is, regular in the 6 cases so the prepositional is "na nebe, v nebe, o nebe".

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

Well, there are about 150 such "exceptions" :D
It is called "second prepositional" (второй предложный)

As for po+Dat, cf. щёлкнуть пО носу, гулять по сАду - the accentuation is more interesting than the form, frankly speaking.
"по" requires the dative case. As I have told you, the form of an attribute shows the form precisely.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

150?! Wow, thanks, I thought there where just a few! The "test" you are talking about is useful for Russian children who needs to learn the grammatical theory. For a person who started to study Russian at the age of 20 it is useless thow:-( if i don't know theoratically wich form to put the noun in, i will not know wich form to put the adjective in neither. :-).

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, you are right. But I mean that the cases are just "labels", so simple intuition is not a good instrument. Just compare the situation when somebody just says "This is dative" without any arguments to a more detailed explanation :)

Here is the link to a rather good manual (a Polish one aimed to the learners of Russian): http://www.sodastudio.pl/yzb/dnld/lang/mydics/grammatika_russkogo_jazyka_izbrannye_voprosy.pdf
See p.5 for second locative :)

[surkova.livejournal.com]

зубрёжка - drilling :)
and ya know that you can always send me the audios with your attempts to get it all right