(no subject)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

If I say "дверь сломали" should the S be pronounced softly?

Comments

[miram.livejournal.com]

No.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

You mean, palatalized? No, why do you think so? There's no "soft sign" anywhere, and neither "o" nor "a" palatalize the preceding consonant.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

I think so because "Кот и собака" is pronounced "Кот ы собака".

[khathi.livejournal.com]

It does. But what does it have to do with the pronunciation of "Дверь сломали", which doesn't have neither unstressed "и", nor "c" is palatalized in the other phrase in the first place.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Christ... Give me the whole rule then: when does the velarization or palatalization rub off between words, and in what direction?

[khathi.livejournal.com]

It's actually rather easy: consonants are only ever modified by following letters and never by preceding. It also doesn't carry across word border, as far as I can remember..

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I have to practice on that:((( But it it always nice ro identify ekat I can work
On in my pronounsiation. Thanks!

[khathi.livejournal.com]

You're welcome.

[emperor-spock.livejournal.com]

To add a little linguistic snobbery to what khathi has said, it is regressive assimilation, and while I can't provide you with any serious references on this case of assimilation in Russian, in all the samples that come to my mind it is regressive (or non-existent):

Say, for plosive voiceless velarised /к/ in /как/

ка/к/ пень -- (none)
ка/г/ груз -- (regresssive)
ка/к'/ пешка -- (regresssive)
ка/г/ бистро -- (regresssive)
ка/к/ сталь -- (none)
ка/г/ золото -- (regressive)
ка/к/ широко -- (none)
ка/г/ жутко -- (regressive)

As you see it is all regressive (if present) and goes along the lines of altering palatalisation and voicing of the preceding consonant.

It doesn't seem to happen with sonants/sonorants:
ка/к/ Маша
ка/к/ мило
ка/к/ нос
ка/к/ няня
ка/к/ лошадь
ка/к/ лямка
ка/к/ рожа
ка/к/ ряса
ка/к/ яшма

And I don't think anything happens to these if they are in the preceding position either (like in your sample).

The "кот /ы/ собака" you've mentioned is simple partial reduction, because of the vowel's being unstressed.

[lola777.livejournal.com]

i'm not an expert or anything like that, but I think С in "сломали" sounds almost the same as S in "snap"

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Is the s in snap velarised or palatalised. I'm not à speaker in english either :)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Not a native speaker. Autocorrect snached the word native:)

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

It is not.

I am not sure what do you really mean

[lion-casserole.livejournal.com]

.
I guess there is no difference in the way "с" sounds in "сломать" and "s" in "slowly".

Re: I am not sure what do you really mean

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

And is that velarised or palatalised.

[dair-spb.livejournal.com]

I don't really see any connection. "Кот и собака": hard consonant then a softening vowel, ergo, vowel changes to non-softening.

"Дверь сломали": soft consonant ("рь"), then hard consonant. Nothing similar.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Well it is a different case, thats why I asked, I obviously knew the rule about hard consonants affecting following vowels, but i didn't know if the same thing happend when a consonant followed a soft consonant.

[dair-spb.livejournal.com]

As non-linguistic person I cannot tell you the rule.

But as Russian-native I can definitely say "no" to your starting answer :-)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That means I have to practice :(.

Re: I am not sure what do you really mean

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

And is that velarized or palatilized?

Re: I am not sure what do you really mean

[khathi.livejournal.com]

It isn't. BTW, repeating the same question in the same words is seen as rude in Russian, as it makes you appear as if you don't care about other people are saying and pursue you gaol mindlessly like a robot.

Re: I am not sure what do you really mean

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

I am not a native english speaker and tried to correct my wrongspelling of the word velarized. Yes my goal was to get the answer to my question in order to improve my Russian. I do persue that goal with quite a stubborness. From experience I know it is good to ask a few people.
If you think I am rude, don't patronize me with stories about particular Russian rules of behaviour, just say so.

Re: I am not sure what do you really mean

[khathi.livejournal.com]

No, I don't mean that you are rude. I just try to warn you that you may seem so to people, and explain why it is so. If someone doesn't answer your question it most probably means that they just don't know the answer, and asking again and again won't bring it sooner. Anyway, if my explanation seem patronizing to you -- sorry, didn't mean that. Just trying to be helpful.

Re: I am not sure what do you really mean

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

:) but that is not tipycally Russian I think. I didn't mean to ask the same question twice, i just unsuccesfully tried to alter the spelling.:( It ALMOST works to use this forum in à phone, but...

Re: I am not sure what do you really mean

[khathi.livejournal.com]

In LJ if you don't have a paid account you cannot edit your comments, only delete them. Editing comments is a paying user's privilege. ;)

Re: I am not sure what do you really mean

[acuzena.livejournal.com]

Just relax, I´m a Spanish linguist and a native Russian speaker, but I have no idea how do you think those s differ. You don´t get answer, because we don´t divide them so as far as I know))
S can be voiced (сбить) or voiceless (сломали), I think that's it.
In my opinion s sounds are pronouned equally in both your examples:
Кот и собака | дверь сломали.

Лучше один раз услышать

[lion-casserole.livejournal.com]

.
Вас, видимо, смущает мягкий знак, предшествующий букве "с" в этом словосочетании. Вот, смотрите, в слове "сломаться" есть две буквы "с" и мягкий знак перед одной из них. А вот тут можно найти пример звучания этого слова:

http://dict.rambler.ru/?coll=4.0er&query=%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%81%D1%8F

[dekarmi.livejournal.com]

It depends on the door material

[kozavr.livejournal.com]

:)

[orie.livejournal.com]

no. why?

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

I think so because "Кот и собака" is pronounced "Кот ы собака".

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Well, OK, T in кот is not palatalized, right? That's why и becomes ы. If it's мать и собака, T is palatalized all right, и does not modify, and С in собака stays as it is in both cases.

[surkova.livejournal.com]

ь doesn't affect c in сломали :)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Hm, then I have to do something about that, because it does when I speak. Always nice to identify somthing to work on in my pronounciation.:) Just got to find the rule somewhere...

[surkova.livejournal.com]

I didn't hear that ;) or maybe just didn't pay attention
you do have a little problem with л vs ль, especially in the middle of the words (like только, солнце), but in most cases I see what you mean and can get you right ;)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

I know... I know how it is suppose to sound - but it is like athletics for the tongue, or like putting your feet right when you dance. It so hard!

[surkova.livejournal.com]

haha
tell me about athletics for the tongue :))) swedish is my pain, you know

[crocotiger.livejournal.com]

Very simple reason: с is velarised BECAUSE л is velarised.

[crocotiger.livejournal.com]

vowel controls the chain of preceding consonants

[crocotiger.livejournal.com]

compare слякоть - both c and л are palatalised, controlled by я.

[oryx_and_crake]

If by palatalisation you mean that c is softened then you are wrong and it is not. Do you really pronounce it "сьлякоть"?

[crocotiger.livejournal.com]

I worked on radio and we were taught to say it сьлякоть. Since then I pronounce it сьлякыть. I agree that many people say слякоть with hard c. It isn't a good example.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

с in слякоть is not palatalized. Where you're form? ;-)

[malinguo.livejournal.com]

Hi there.

If you really want to know the rule, you're unlikely to find it here--palatalization assimilation is variable, and it depends on dialect and age. There is some discussion here:

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5150140

As far as how consonants affect vowels and vice versa, the best resource I can recommend (in English) is this:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/vm297lj2220x26t7/

The short story is, despite what the orthography would lead you to believe (and some comments above), the palatalization of the consonant determines the frontness of the vowel, not the other way around. There are a few morphological contexts where vowel-initial (and sometimes consonant-initial) suffixes cause a palatalization change on the preceding consonant, as in черт-черти, but for the most part, the phonological generalization is a pretty robust one.

In my observation, consonant clusters in the speech of modern Moscow Russians do not assimilate in palatalization very much, with the only exception being clusters of coronals. Palatalization does not assimilate in consonant clusters across the word boundary at all, as far as I know.

[samurfila.livejournal.com]

No. I'm a native Russian speaker :)