help?

[sparklethedarkx.livejournal.com]

So I'm kind of new to the language, and a few things have been nagging at my mind and making it more difficult to comprehend.  I understand most of the alphabet, except for two letters:

"the hard sign" ъ
and
"the soft sign" ь

I've tried to find their meanings on a few different websites, and I've asked my Russian friend, but her english isn't too good, so I could not really understand.  What do they really mean?

Comments

[firebottle.livejournal.com]

Ъ is used as a delimiter between prefix and root, or between roots.
Ь modifies the meaning of the preceding consonant, making it "soft".

google it!

[maratustra.livejournal.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yer (paragraph - Modern Russian: Hard sign)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_sign

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

You can also think of them as special 'service' letters designed to "open" the closed syllables they precede, therefore altering the pronunciation of vowels therein (as noted above, making "я" sound as "ya", "ю" as "yu" etc.).

Although I never heard of a concept of an open/closed syllable in Russian, I think it resembles pretty close this concept in English with one major difference: in English, a syllable is 'opened' by an 'e' (or sometimes another vowel) that FOLLOWS the syllable; in Russian, a syllable is 'opened' by a PRECEDING 'Ъ' or 'Ь'.

[sparklethedarkx.livejournal.com]

oh, okay! that helped out a lot! thanks!

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

To summarize all that was said above,

Ь (soft sign) is used where a) palatalization is needed but doesn't occur naturally (for example, at the end of the word: «день», «ель» etc) and b) there's a need to phonetically «disconnect» two syllables where first syllable ends with already palatalized consonant (for example: «бельё»).

Ъ (hard sign) is user only in situations analogous to b) case above (i.e. «disconnection» of two syllables) but where palatalization is not needed (for example: «объявление», «предъявлять»). This mostly happens between prefixes and roots that start with a vowel.

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

It is a conventional signs which do not have own sounding. They show us a shades of sounding (pronunciation) of letters in Russian words.

For instance:

Гладь (G l ah d’) d’ – sounds like d sounds (not letter) in «dictation» (say to yourself di but do not make sound of «i» long.)
Парад (p ah r ah d) d – sounds here as last sound in parade

When we use «ъ» we make our pronunciation of letters as in alphabet (not name of letter, only sounds of them. For example Russian letter “C”. Its name sounds as “As”, but it sounds in Russian words as first sound in “Smile”), also we make very, very, very, very, very, very, very little pause.
Субъект ( s u b [pause] ya k t] “ya” sounds like first sound in “Yale University”

Joking

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

Do you really pronounce «субъект» as [subya:kt]? That's interesting :)

Re: Joking

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

Я произношу это как "субъект".
ya - как звук, который похож на то как мы произносим его в слоге "йе" в словосочетании "Йельский Университет".
А Вы как-то по-другому????? :-))))))

Re: Joking

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

"Yale" was just not the good example, because usually "ya" is pronounced like in "yahoo", no? :)

Anyway, the point was the use of "yer", and I suppose the right way to transcribe "субъект" is [subj'εkt].

Re: Joking

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

Btw, do you know how to pronounce "Yale University" as English native speaker? Russian says something like "ye", English says as "ya" like in "yahoo", is not it? I've interested to know the true :-)
According to your [subj'?kt]. How does "J'" sound? It seems to me that "j'" sounds like first sound in the word "genius". Anyway, I explained to Katee the way of reading (pronounsing) of Russian letters in Russian words. :-)

Re: Joking

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

In the transcription I used symbols according to International Phonetic Alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet), so [j] is definitely not like in “genius”.

Re: Joking

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

да здравствует истина. :-)

Re: Joking

[monkeedreamer.livejournal.com]

I know this is older, but actually in "genius" it is very much a J sound. "Genius" has the same sound as a pair of "jeans," for instance.

Re: Joking

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

Yes, "genius" and "jeans" start with the same sounds, namely "dʒ"

Re: Joking

[monkeedreamer.livejournal.com]

I know your comment is old, but I wanted to reply if you were still curious. The Y in "Yale" is pronounced like in "yahoo," but the A is like in the word "fail." Actually "yale" and "fail" rhyme. So if you know how to pronounce that, or other similar words (mail, ailment, tail, etc), then you know how to pronounce Yale. =)

Re: Joking

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

If I understood you correctly it sounds in Russian as "Ель" (Йель), doesn't it?
"Йель" and Фейл (fail) looks as a rhyme. "Яль" doesn't suit for this rhyme. :-)

Re: Joking

[monkeedreamer.livejournal.com]

Umm, it's similar, but not quite. I'm not as advanced with Russian so I was looking back at the beginning of my one book (it has been put aside for a bit since I am supposed to be trying to learn Dutch, since I just moved to Belgium this summer) to see about the different vowel sounds, since off the top of my head I couldn't think of one that works, and if the book is proper, Russian doesn't utilize that particular "A" sound. From my understanding, the letter "е" has more of a sound comparable to the English word "yell," than to "yale."

Ah, perhaps all my rambling would be better set aside in favor of providing this: Hear it yourself (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?bixyal01=Yale), that should work to provide you with the Merriam-Webster's online dictionary pronunciation of the word. =)

Re: Joking

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

Thanks monkeedreamer. I've just listened to the record. It sounds very close to Russian pronunciation of “Йель”. Russians and English native speakers are almost agree with it. It is not like “Яль” at all. Thank you.

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

Sorry!!!
Субъект ( s u b [pause] ye k t]
I have just realized that Russian and English have had difference pronaunce of "Yale University"

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

It's been discussed previously. See: http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/759147.html

Also, could you tell us if all of this helped or you still have some questions?

[philena.livejournal.com]

I won't repeat everyone else's comments, which are right on. I will simply add a philosophical tidbit: think of those signs not as if they represent sounds, which they don't, but like English's silent "e". You never pronounce it, but it makes "mat" and "mate," "lop" and "lope," "grip" and "gripe," and lots of other pairs into entirely separate words by indicating a different pronunciation of the vowel. In the same way, you don't pronounce "ь," but it makes pairs like "мать" аnd "мат" into entirely different words by indicating a different pronunciation of the preceding consonant.

[sparklethedarkx.livejournal.com]

that makes everything a lot easier to understand! thank you!