learn_russian | Usage tips

For the benefit of the learners I'll repeat here a comment that several people found useful (it's gone along with the post).
The recent incident may be a good opportunity to learn some subtleties of Russian usage so that you'll avoid inadvertent offense and confusion.

In Russia the word "русский" in reference to a person usually implies ethnicity. So, words like "не русский", "не для русских" have an offensive ring. Think of something like "no Hispanics". The intent may be "not for native Spanish speakers" but the way it's stated it may sound offensive.

The words "россиянин", "россияне" may be a good alternative only in some contexts. For example, "президента поддерживают X% россиян". (The word "русских" here would imply that citizens of other ethnicities are not counted).
On the other hand, you wouldn't want to ask "Как употребляют это слово россияне?", unless you have a reason to believe that native Russian speakers elsewhere use the word differently (normally it's not the case).
Basically, you wouldn't use "россияне" to imply "native Russian speakers" pretty much for the same reason you wouldn't say "the British" instead of "native English speakers". A lot of native Russian speakers live in the former Soviet republics and other countries.
So, when you want to refer to "native Russian speakers" you should say "носители (русского) языка", "русскоговорящие", "русскоязычные".

There is a remarkable exception, however, that you should be aware of. Russian speaking emigrants outside of the former Soviet Union (in the US, Canada, Israel, Germany, Britain, Australia etc) do use the word "русские" to imply "native Russian speakers" regardless of their ethnicity in reference to fellow emigrants. This usage is actually borrowed from the surrounding cultures. Keep in mind, that it strikes people living in the former USSR as odd. This oddity has been widely mocked, sometimes in offensive ways.
You may, however, encounter this usage in your own country if you get to hang out with Russian speakers.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

nipple-salad.livejournal.com

that's really interesting! thanks for the clarification!

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Yeah, when I used to do refugee job placement for (native Russian-speaking) Jews from the former Soviet Union, they would often remark mournfully that they'd had to come to America to be considered "русские."

From:

gera.livejournal.com

Often fresh immigrants shy away from such usage or even resent it, but the vast majority eventually embraces it.
Perhaps, I should use past tense here, because nowadays this usage is firmly entrenched in the immigrant parlance.

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Well, in that situation the whole reason they were in the U.S. to begin with was becasue they WEREN'T "русские," or they wouldn't have qualified for refugee visas based on discrimination against them because of their minority status. So the whole thing was pretty ironic.

I haven't been immersed in that community in quite some time, and I imagine things have changed quite a bit by now.

(deleted comment)

From:

neprostobob.livejournal.com

it is true for all nationality and country. Truly?

From:

gera.livejournal.com

Yes, and early on many of those immigrants would correct their American counterparts: "I am not a Russian, I am a Jew!", thus completely baffling them, because Americans don't see any contradiction here.
The confusion is aggravated by the fact that "a Jew" is normally considered a religious characteristic in America, but in Russia it is ethnicity.
Here's another usage tip: a Jew as an adherent of Judaism is called "иудей", while a Jew as a member of the Jewish people is called "еврей".
(The words Jew-иудей stem from the same origin, the word еврей is of the same origin as "Hebrew").

To further confuse things the word "nationality" in English speaking world means citizenship, while in Russia "национальность" means ethnicity regardless of citizenship.

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Yeah, I experienced the converse as a quite non-practicing American Jew when I studied in Russia. People would ask me my nationality, and I would say "American." And then they would look at me again, and ask wasn't I "еврейka"? And it took me ages to understand that they were really asking my ethnic background, not the country whose passport I was carrying.

(I'd explain this all much better if I ever actually bothered figuring out how to type in Cyrillic.)

From:

kehlen-crow.livejournal.com

(I'd explain this all much better if I ever actually bothered figuring out how to type in Cyrillic.)

Using http://translit.ru/ ?

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Thanks! I'm probably too lazy to do it on a regular basis, but that's a very handy link.

From:

uncle-gora.livejournal.com

This isn't just a Jewish thing per se.
At some point the phrase "I am not a Russian!" (usually said with a high level of annoyance and anger) became the "must say" phrase for almost all the people who immigrated from ex-USSR and didn't have "Nationality: Russian" stated in their passports. Obviously that statement would usually be followed by horror stories about "blood sucking Russians that tortured, raped, burned and butchered anybody and everybody who had the misfortune of being not 100% Russian".
The main reason why I am saying all of this is to, I guess, warn people against using word "русский" to describe the nationality of somebody who looks Russian. It is a shame that this word recently became almost a swear word (for all intensive purposes) but there is really nothing that could be done about that.
Also, North Americans seem to be very confused about Russia (and USSR) in general, and do not get all "small little details" right, so sometimes Russians end up having ridicules conversations like these ones (http://uncle-gora.livejournal.com/17129.html).

From:

chouchou61.livejournal.com

I know that this is the "Learn Russian" community, but I thought I'd throw in a little English-language correction ... the fixed expression you were looking for is actually "for all intents and purposes."

From:

uncle-gora.livejournal.com

sorry, you are right, of course. However, the misspelling was intentional.

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Yeah, and not just applicable to Russian ethnicity. For example, my grandfather was born in Riga, Latvia in 1904, but he sure wasn't a Latvian, and would be completely boggled whenever anyone called him that (although not as pissed off as if someone called him Russian).

I once had a loooong conversation about my ethnicity with a U.S. census enumerator, who couldn't understand why, if I had great-grandparents who were from Ukraine, Belarus, and Latvia, that didn't mean I was Ukrainian, Belorussian, or Latvian. How is it that the U.S. Census Bureau has a box to check for Samoans, but not for Ashkenazi Jews? There must be more Jews in the U.S. than Samoans, and for that matter, at this point more Jews than Native Americans. The census enumerator humored me, though, and by the end of my rant, she was laughing.

From:

gera.livejournal.com

Whenever you encounter an American whose grandparents or great grandparents came from any part of the Russian Empire you can bet 10 to 1 that they were Jews.
This is just a historical fact: over two millions of Russian Jews came to US in late 19th-early 20-th century. And yes, people who are listed as ethnic Russians in the US census would not be considered such in Russia either 100 years ago or today.

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Yeah, but what about the other great-grandparents, who came from what was then Austria, but is now southern Poland? All of my great-grandparents had the same ethnicity, as a practical matter, but they came from four, or possibly 5 countries - the genealogical details are almost as fuzzy as the borders over the past 150 years. It's kind of silly not to acknowledge that if you are actually trying to understand anything about the ethnic makeup of the United States.

Then again, it's just in the last census that it was even possible to indicate that a person is multiracial, so perhaps I should cut them some slack on the, what, 2% of the U.S. population that is Jewish.

From:

cassandraclue.livejournal.com

Yes, my family is one of the small population of non-Jewish Belarusian immigrants and I've never met another non-Jewish Belarusian-American outside of my family's community.

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

I know one, but then he came as the spouse of a (Jewish) refugee. Given that about 50% of the Jewish community is married ot non-Jews, that's probably not such an unusual case.

From:

cassandraclue.livejournal.com

That's different from what I'm talking about, though. I'm second-generation--I'm sure that RECENT non-Jewish immigrants from Belarus aren't as uncommon, especially with people whose situations are like the guy's you know, but it's fairly unusual to be like me and have grandparents who immigrated sixty years ago and to not be at all Jewish.

Edited Date: 2009-06-19 10:12 pm (UTC)

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Well, here in Chicago we have a bunch of Ukrainians of that vintage, but most of those are primarily Ukrainian speakers.

From:

uncle-gora.livejournal.com

You see, that's my problem exactly. I do not know why people get so up in arms when somebody incorrectly guesses their nationality?
For instance, I have an Ukrainian last name (I guess there were some Ukrainians on my father's side of the family), my grandmother is Finnish, I was born and grew up in Russia, and I've lived in Canada since I was a teenager. Would I ever get upset, boggled or pissed off if somebody guesses my nationality wrong? No way. Why does it even matter?

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Myself, I'm usually just amused when it happens. I am a native English speaker who speaks both Spanish and Russian with an accent, but one that is slight enough that people can't usually tell that English is my native language. I am mistaken for all kinds of things: Argentinian, Armenian, pretty much everything but Swedish or Chinese. Once I was mistaken for a Soviet hard-currency hooker (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=183285) (which was pretty damn funny).

But then I don't get pissed off unless people are making bigoted remarks about me, or attributing opinions to me that I don't hold, purely because of my background (like the drunk Spaniard in a bar in 1988 who was convinced that I was the reason that Ronald Reagan had decided to host ABMs at the Torrejon U.S. air base outside Madrid). If I had been a victim of ethnic or religious discrimination, I might feel differently.

From:

gera.livejournal.com

I don't think people would normally tell horror stories. The reason non-ethnic-Russians would resent being called Russians is that they would like to have their background acknowledged whatever it may be. They just didn't like being lumped together with other people of similar background, just like, for example, it may be offensive for a Colombian to be called Mexican just because when Americans think of Hispanics, Mexicans come to mind first. It is not because a Columbian would have any particular beef with Mexicans. It is kind of similar to the way you resented being lumped together with the Russian-Jewish residents of North York in your story. You surely know that North York has a huge Russian-Israeli community that may affect default assumptions of Canadians in the area about background of an arbitrary Russian speaker they encounter there, but I would say it's only the most ignorant who wouldn't know that Passover is a Jewish holiday and that Russia is not a Jewish state. As I said most non-ethnic Russians in North America eventually embrace the term "Russian" in both languages applied to themselves, even to the point where it is resented on the other side of the ocean - by ethnic Russians who feel that the term is being usurped.

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

Except that sometimes there ARE intra-Hispanic tensions. Let me tell you, very few Mexicans appreciate being mistaken for a Puerto Rican, or vice versa; all too frequently, each group looks down on the other. For that matter, I've certainly known my share of, say, Dagestanis, who although they are citizens of the Russian Federation and speak Russian as well as they speak their own mother tongues, would consider being called "русский" to be an insult.

From:

gera.livejournal.com

Well, of course, actual tensions between the groups would surely cause a more negative response. What I am saying is that even in the absence of actual hostility between the groups such misidentification may be offensive (He thinks "They are all the same"!). But, again, most people give up correcting and just get over it.

From:

uncle-gora.livejournal.com

>>I don't think people would normally tell horror stories
You would be amazed. I would have shared some but I do not like repeating nonsense.
>>you resented being lumped together with the Russian-Jewish residents of North York
Do not get me wrong, it's not a resentment, although I do sometimes want to be able to distance myself from some of the residents of North York. (http://uncle-gora.livejournal.com/36652.html) The thing that pissed me off the most is really the lack of knowledge. It's one thing when a Ukrainian guy get's called Russian (that's an honest mistake at that point, probably), but the one who does the calling realizes the difference. Completely different is to imply that Russians speak Hebrew (there is nothing wrong with that language, BTW, it's just not factually correct).

From:

gera.livejournal.com

Well, as I said, they guy is either completely ignorant, or, quite likely, his expectations were affected by background of Russian-speakers he had met heretofore. He may not have meant that all Russians speak Hebrew, but that those Russians who live in North York usually do.

From:

kali-kali.livejournal.com

The reason non-ethnic-Russians would resent being called Russians is that they would like to have their background acknowledged whatever it may be.

THIS. I can't count the number of times in my childhood (it is somewhat better now) that people would say, "oh, you're Latvian? So you speak Russian, right?", and my response would typically be "No, you , I speak Latvian." Just because Latvia was a part of the Soviet Union does not mean that I am Russian or even speak Russian (and all this ignoring the fact that my grandparents came to Canada in the first place because they left Latvia as refugees fleeing the Soviet invasion during the Second World War).

It isn't just non-Russians that do it, my Russian teacher in university (who was Russian) would frequently lump me, the Ukrainian students and the Estonian lady in our class with "people connected to Russia". We weren't particularly pleased about that.

From:

oryx_and_crake

Actually, Russian was a mandatory school subject in all the USSR republics, besides being an official language of the USSR, so there is a good possibility that someone from Latvia will, indeed, speak Russian. Of course it depends on when you left, but you cannot expect an average North-American to know all the subtleties of European history.

From:

kali-kali.livejournal.com

I know that. But I was born and grew up in Canada. And when people make assumptions about the languages I speak, they already have that information (the conversation typically goes like this: even though I have an "ethnic" name, yes, I was born and raised in Canada, my grandparents came to Canada from Latvia during WW2, and then people make the language assumption), and assume that because my family background is Latvian, that I speak Russian as a result. They don't realize we have our own language.

From:

gera.livejournal.com

If your grandparents left the area during WW2 I would assume they didn't know any (or much) Russian. Is that right?

From:

kali-kali.livejournal.com

That would be right. The only member of my family that knows a halfway decent amount of Russian besides me (and I only know it because I had to study it in university for my major - well, it or German, and Russian was easier) is my great-aunt (my grandmother's sister), because she was born before the First World War, and spent her early childhood living near Moscow while the front lines of the First World War were raging through the Baltics. Upon Latvian independence from the Russian Empire, her family promptly moved back to Latvia, where my grandmother was born not long afterwards. She hasn't really used it since that early childhood, but that knowledge is still there in the back of her mind.

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_christine/

The flip side of it is that everyone I've met who is a Latvian immigrant (all three people, so a small sample size), doesn't speak Latvian because they are later generation than your family. Same with Lithuanian immigrants. I've met people who didn't know that people in the Baltic states had to speak Russian compulsorarily. No one can know everything, and consequently people like you get stuck answering the same questions over and over again. Which of course, must be very very frustrating.

From:

gera.livejournal.com

Were they ethnic Latvians, though?

From:

evaluna68.livejournal.com

I knew a Latvian family with 4 kids about my age, all of whom spoke Latvian fluently. But there is a Latvian Saturday school here, which helps. I'm not sure when the family arrived in the U.S., but I got the impression that the kids were the first generation born here, which would have made it the late 1960s or earlier.

From:

johnnyever.livejournal.com

What about "жед?" Not sure of the spelling. They use it in Everything is Illuminated. Based on the context, I would assume it is derogatory.

From:

gera.livejournal.com

It's "жид". Ethymologically it comes from the same origin as Jew/иудей. It used to be a regular word for "Jew" in Russian until about 1700s when it was officially recognized as derogatory while "еврей" an acceptable alternative. "Жид" is still a regular word for Jew in some Slavic languages.
In Russian it is considered offensive, pretty much like the n-word.

From:

johnnyever.livejournal.com

Thank you.

(deleted comment)

From:

johnnyever.livejournal.com

Yep. Thanks.

From:

raventhourne.livejournal.com

Thank you for this clarification.

Very interesting notes in Ethno-anthropology.

From:

acuzena.livejournal.com

Thanks for posting, I'm Russian, but was still very curious to know these facts.

From:

ualexj.livejournal.com

how interesting, the author finds words 'non-russian' as an offence? феерический бред, извините меня конечно...

From:

gera.livejournal.com

Your comments could more useful if you actually took the time to read what you are replying to.
It says:
So, words like "не русский", "не для русских" have an offensive ring.

It doesn't say that "the author finds words 'non-russian' as an offence".

The whole explanation follows an incident where a moderator did find these words offensive and therefore removed the post.

From:

ualexj.livejournal.com

вы хотите привнести в эту фразу оттенок твердой истины, а это не так. фраза, написанная вами не имеет негатива, филологически. это не место для споров, пускай учащиеся смотрят словарь.