[identity profile] lara86.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] learn_russian
Здраствуйте!
У меня всегда токой вопрос мучает...всегда, с тех пор, как я начала изучать русский язык.
Вот он:
Сушествуют ли правила по поводу ударения при склонении существительных в русском языке?

Я знаю, например, несколько правил, согласно которых можно произносить слова правильным ударением.
Не знаю...есть слова, позиция ударения которых изменяется во мн. ч.; например:

вольнА --> вОльны (и это правило - настолько я учила- подходит к всем двухсложным существительным ж. р. на -а, -я  )

слОво --> словА (правило подходящее к всем двухсложным существительным среднего рода  на -о, -е).

Но, я хотела знать существует ли какая-то схема (общая) ударений для существительных?

(уверена, что такой схемы не существует, но по крайней мере я пытала) 

Спасибо заранее

Лара

Moderatorial

Date: 2009-05-02 07:41 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Please note that the working language of this community is English. It is OK to post in Russian but in this case please provide a translation. Thank you.

Re: Moderatorial

Date: 2009-05-02 08:01 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
No, your question is fine, it is just that many people here do not know Russian well enough to follow what's being said. Just update your post adding the English translation.
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Date: 2009-05-02 07:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ushastyj-zver.livejournal.com
Единой схемы, к сожалению (или к счастью, потому что так интереснее), нет. Есть только частные правила, о которых вы уже написали.
Только...
вольнА --> вОльны (и это правило - настолько я учила- подходит к всем двухсложным существительным ж. р. на -а, -я )
Здесь что-то не так. Вольна - это краткое прилагательное ж. р. (от прил. вольный), хотя правило, действительно, действует. Но есть имя сущ. "волна" (onda по-итальянски, если я правильно помню), во мн. ч. - вОлны. Ударение в ед.ч. должно падать на окончание - волнА - вОлны, стенА - стЕны, рукА - рукИ и т.д.
__________________________________________________
There is no such a rule (fortunately or unfortunately), we can only use special rules for special cases.
But it seems to be a mistake in your example: there is a noun волна (a wave) and a short feminine form of an adjective вольный (free, but the meaning is more complex) - вольна.
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Date: 2009-05-02 09:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ushastyj-zver.livejournal.com
Thank you, of coarse, рУки. Just a terrible misprint :)

But I don't think you are right about two patterns for two meanings. There are two meanings and a tendency to stress Ы for the second meanind, but it's not a strict rule.
And the second usage (I'm not sure we really should speak about a separate meaning) is more common.

Date: 2009-05-02 08:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] son-de-la-voix.livejournal.com
Общей схемы не существует. Хуже того, большинство русских сами часто не знают какое ударение правильное. Иногда бывает, что несколько возможных ударений считаются одинаково правильными!

Date: 2009-05-02 08:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
>Иногда бывает, что несколько возможных ударений считаются одинаково правильными!

Hmm. Examples please.
And please don't forget that the working language of this community is English.

Date: 2009-05-02 08:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ushastyj-zver.livejournal.com
If you don't mind me to answer )

твОрог и творОг are both absolutely okay, the same is for одноврЕменно и одновремЕнно, Иначе и инАче, мышлЕние и мЫшление.

And, yes, many Russians are often confused with stresses.

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Date: 2009-05-02 09:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] son-de-la-voix.livejournal.com
Наберите в гугле "двоякое ударение". Несколько совершенно верных примеров Вам привели ниже.

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Date: 2009-05-02 06:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ponny1.livejournal.com
звонИт - звОнит
салЮтовать - салютовАть
фОльга - фольгА

etc.

on the first place I have put RIGHT form (yeah, фОльга is the right accent, but nobody says this way, this means, that there are no realy usefull rules in russian's stresses)

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Date: 2009-05-02 08:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Most stresses in Russian have to be memorized. Alas.

But the humankind, in its endless hope for better life, invented dictionaries to make life easier. And one of them is Maria Zarva's Dictionary of Stresses (http://slovari.yandex.ru/dict/zarva)!

Date: 2009-05-02 11:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com
I don't think people actually memorize the stresses. At least for me, both in Russian and English it's easier to perceive the patterns of stresses.
Likewise, quite a lot of english irregular verb forms can be memorized easily via feeling and devising patterns to remember and not the verbs one by one. As far as I remember, some people around me struggled with those in school days.

They don't teach the language in this manner, but it works for me better, so I used the lessons as the source of information.

Date: 2009-05-02 09:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rushevs.livejournal.com
про ударение уже всё сказали выше, а я позволю себе обратить внимание на две ошибки в Вашем посте)))

>>>к всем двухсложным существительным

правильно: ко всем двухсложным существительным

>>>но по крайней мере я пытала

правильно: но по крайней мере я пыталась

есть глагол пытать (to torture), а есть пытаться (to try)

а в остальном всё просто замечательно))

Date: 2009-05-02 09:59 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Please note that the working language of this community is English. Thank you.

Date: 2009-05-02 10:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rushevs.livejournal.com
ok. But I see, that lara86 knows Russian very well and I decided to write in this language.

Date: 2009-05-02 10:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rushevs.livejournal.com
Excuse me, but I noticed two mistakes in your post. Maybe, my advices will be useful for you))

>>>к всем двухсложным существительным

right: ко всем двухсложным существительным

>>>но по крайней мере я пытала

right: но по крайней мере я пыталась

in Russian language "пытать" means "to torture" and "пытаться" means "to try"

Date: 2009-05-02 07:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icamel.livejournal.com
the most severe and common mistake in the post is 'правил, согласно которых'. Preposition согласно requires dative case: правил, согласно которым.

Date: 2009-05-02 07:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rushevs.livejournal.com
yes, you are quite right. Does it have any attitude to my message?))

Date: 2009-05-02 07:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rushevs.livejournal.com
o, I'm sorry, I didn't notice this mistake in lara's post))

Date: 2009-05-02 02:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] littlecrishna.livejournal.com
>>и это правило - настолько я учила- подходит к всем двухсложным существительным ж. р. на -а, -я
Это правило подходит вовсе не ко всем, а только к НЕКОТОРЫМ двусложным существительным ж.р. на -а, -я.
Примеры - пАлка - пАлки, нОта - нОты, кОфта - кОфты, щЁтка - щЁтки, мУха - мУхи - в этих примерах ударение не изменяется.
Правил постановки ударения в русском языке нет, оно подвижно и может переходить с основы на окончание и наоборот)

Date: 2009-05-02 06:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Please note that the working language of this community is English. Thank you.

Date: 2009-05-03 12:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] littlecrishna.livejournal.com
I know. But the girl asked the question in russian, that's why it'd be better to provide help for her in russian too, than to leave her with no help (cos we don't know if she speaks english)

Date: 2009-05-02 06:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ponny1.livejournal.com
huh!!!

and it wouldn't be a big mistake to make an accent вольнЫ instead of вОльны. you see, I am russian speaker and I have already recognized that I made a mistake my whole life!! This means, that there is no common rule about russian stresses ((

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