Russian linguistics: Association

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

In English we have "associative" adjectives which do not directly change the traits of their head noun but associate something else with it:

dental decay = decay of teeth
dental building = *building of teeth

or rather:

autumnal weather = weather associated with autumn / *weather composed of autumn
autumnal colours = colours associated with autumn / *colours composed of autumn

Anyone who knows French can easily understand with adjectives before/after:

un homme grande = a tall/big man
un grand homme = a great man (lit. 'a man associated with tallness/bigness' / 'a man figuratively big')

Does Russian have any such associative adjectives? Do they behave differently than the others?

Это снег - зимный.
Обстановка в комнате - зимна. (associative???)

Comments

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

Because I tried to make a short-form feminine version of зимний but was too tired/lazy to remember and the correct inflection wasn't pertinent to my question at hand anyway-- but maybe I should have been more careful, because it caused almost no one to even think about what the actual question was.

I am tired of every question in this community being pounced upon by people assuming they're basic questions the OP could find out by looking in a Russian grammar book but is just too lazy.

If you read the first 9/10 of the post you wouldn't have answered by telling me the inflectional patterns of adjectives

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

I didn´t tell you inflectional patterns of adjectives.

I thought a linguist could know the difference between relatival and qualitative adjectives. As well as the patterns.

There is a certain difference between
болен
and
больной

Didn´t you look up in a dictionary?

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

One is "hurting" one is "painful".

Is болен relational then, because he's not actually in pain but is "related" to pain?

So is девушка - красива relational while

девушка - красивая is qualitative?

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

"болен" means "sick at the moment"

"Он больной"
means "He is a sick person". (He has tb o sth. like that)

I thought that was the question.
They are both qualitative, by the way

красивая
and
красива

are both qualitative.
But if you say "Красива природа Уругвая" - it is a complete sentense. The nature of Uruguay is beautiful.

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

So you're talking about inherent traits vs. traits specific to the focus.

I'm talking about say, зимние шины are tyres which are for the winter but are not specifically winter tyres while огромные шины are tyres which are huge (trait).

Are there certain behaviours differing between the two? Do they change meaning in different positions as they do in some other languages (like English or French)?

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

The only three adjectives I know are

больной
болен

большой - big
велик - too big (clothes)

маленький - small
мал - too small (clothes)

But it doesn´t depend on the position. It depends on the form. If you use the short form before or after the subject, it will be the predicate.

Природа Уругвая красива. Красива природа Уругвая. The nature of Uruguay is beautiful.
The meaning of красива doesn´t change

But if you use these three adjectives, they change meaning depending on the form.

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

There probably are some differing behaviours, but nothing cames to my mind. And I cannot make up an example where they would change meaning in different positions, so I conclude that Russian is not like English or French in this aspect.

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for this-- this actually might make my dissertation finished but pointless though...

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

I'm glad that my knowledge helped to solve one of your problems. Sorry for having created another instead. :)

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

btw

"winter tyres", "tyres for winter"
"newspaper´s page", "page of a(the) newspaper", "newspaper page"

is the darkest area in English grammar for Russian speakers (speakers of Russian)

I spent hours trying to understand, but there are too many special cases.
Like "containers", "time", etc...
There were funny examples.
e.g.
American football coach
and
American football coach

English teacher (but he is Chinese)
and
English teacher (of Chemistry),
depending on the stress

Can you please explain the difference between "winter tyres" and "tyres for the winter"?

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

Well, that makes it all the more interesting for me, because maybe Russian doesn't have this distinction then!-

In this case, "winter tyres" would be literally tyres made of winter (obviously impossible) in the same way as "rubber tyres".

rubber/big/small/good/bad/expensive tyres = tyres[(which are) x]
winter/summer/Michelin/off-road tyres = *tyres[(which are) x]

The second group are the ones which are less straightforward, and are the ones I'm concerned about-- even English speakers can't explain every example.

In your examples, "Américan fòotball coach" (a coach of American football) would be group 2 while "American fóotball còach" (a football coach who is American) is, complicated enough, group 1 and group 2 (but for your learning is better to be considered group 1 even though the coach is not actually "made of" America as it should be)

Similarly, "Énglish teacher" is group 2 while "English téacher" is group 1 (or 1&2)

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

rubber/big/small/good/bad/expensive tyres
"rubber" doesn´t seem to be in the right place

I guess, there is no universal explanation.
As i said, too many exceptions.
Is there "winter coat"?

e.g.
you can say "chicken leg"
but not "table leg"

So you asked the unclearest question possible.
I don´t dig it yet.

Correct version

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

Q: What kind of tyres are they?

A: They're rubber/big/small/good/bad/expensive.
A: *They're winter/summer/off-road.
A: They're winter/summer/off-road ones/tyres.

(Michelin is a strange example of both which I'm actually researching right now-- so even native English speakers don't understand)

Q: What kind of coat is it?

A: It's rubber/big/small/good/bad/expensive.
A: *It's winter/summer.
A: It's a winter/summer one/coat.

"Chicken" is like the "Michelin" example as well.

*"table lég" (a table made of "leg") but
"táble leg" (a leg of ("associated with/related to") a table) is okay.

Re: Correct version

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

You said, "winter tyres" would be made of winter. So, i thought they din´t exist. They exist, but in the second group (according to your groups)

"Rubber" is still in the wrong place. It´s not qualitative. To check it, you can try to say "rubberer" or "more rubber".
But "bigger", more expensive, better, worse are OK.


And i didn´t know "táble leg" is okay. I thought "table leg" was an error. Surprise.

"Car door", then?

To understand it, i should have been born English.
I am sure there is no such examples in Russian.

There is changing of meaning (meaning change) in some cases like

вчерашний суп был лучше (суп, которые ели вчера)
вчерашний суп (несвежий)
It doesn´t have anything to do with the position or the form.

I´m not a linguist, i´m a teacher of Russian as a FL. But, as far as i know, lexical semantics is one of the most difficult things in linguistics. Besides, this "chicken leg"-"table leg"-"car door" is the least clear in English grammar.

So,
try to be patient. And ask linguists, not just speakers of Russian. :)

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

there are

Re: Correct version

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

well, metaphysically tyres made of winter couldn't exist because winter is a time while a tyre is a physical object-- can an object be made of time? It's grammatically possible, but it makes no sense.

You're confusing function with shape-- Rubber can't be graded not because it's not qualitative, but because it's not an adjective.

Both nouns and adjectives can modify nouns, but only adjectives can be graded.

"car door", "stable door", "garden gate", "car tyre"... English loves compounds...

Re: Correct version

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

Yes, i made a mistake. It´s a noun.
Bu i still don´t understand why do you place "rubber" together with "big", and there is no place for "winter" in this group.

Do "winter tyres" exist or not?
And does "winter coat" exist?

Are they both impossible and "made of winter"?

Is English your native language?

Re: Correct version

[ulvesang.livejournal.com]

in winter coat, the coat is associated with winter
winter tyres exist, but not winter tyres in the sense of tyres made of winter-- only tyres associated with winter

I think I can make these judgements even though my native language is American :P

Re: Correct version

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

I´m glad they exist.
I really wasn´t sure.

And RUBBER/expensive/big/good ?