Participles and Relative Clauses

[philena.livejournal.com]

Hello. I am doing a theoretical syntax project on Russian participles, and I have a few questions about whether certain forms are possible. I am aware that participles in general are not used in colloquial speech, and some of the forms I'm suggesting are indeed awkward beyond belief, but I am concerned more about whether something can ever be used, rather than whether it's stylistically ugly.

1. It seems that passive participles act almost identically to adjectives. Is the same true for active participles? In particular, is it possible to have short-form active participles as predicates? For example:

Она читающа книгу
Она была читающа книгу

Or are these forms bad, and instead I simply use the verb itself:

Она читает книгу.
Она читала книгу.

2. Active participles can modify full nouns:

Он видел человека, читающего книгу.

Can they modify pronouns?

Он видел меня, читающую (or читающего, if I were a man) книгу.
Он видел его, читающего книгу.
Он видел нас, читающих книгу.

3. In cases when there is a relative clause after a pronoun, I have seen constructions like the following:

Он видел того, кто читает книгу.

When the pronoun is not third-person, what person does the embedded verb take? In other words, which of the following is correct?

Он видел меня, кто читаю книгу
Он видел меня, кто читает книгу.

Thank you for your help. I imagine as I work further on this paper I will come up with more questions.

Comments

[khathi.livejournal.com]

1. These participle forms are correct as they fit the paradigm, but such forms aren't used in modern Russian. The simple verbal forms must be used here.

2. They can and they do. Grammatically Russian pronouns are very much alike nouns proper, and if a noun must agree with a verb or participle, so must any pronoun.

3. In this example verbal relative clause looks very awkward -- that's the very place to use participle. But if you just need to know, the second one is okay, except you should use different preposition here: "Он видел меня, который читает книгу".

[philena.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much. I have some follow up questions about your answer to #3:

1. My impression was that you use кто when the noun that precedes it is a pronoun, but you say that if the pronoun is something like меня, I should use который. Is кто a good relative pronoun only when the noun that precedes it is тот? If not, what other sorts of nouns can precede кто when кто is the relative pronoun?

2. Just to confirm: it is absolutely incorrect to use читаю, regardless of the linking verb? Could I use читаешь as below, or is that similarly bad?

Он видел тебя, который читаешь книгу.

Finally, if we do use a third-person noun, is number agreement free? I seem to remember learning that both of the following are good:

Он видел тех, кто читает книгу.
Он видел тех, кто читают книгу.

Is this right? If not, which is correct?

[oryx_and_crake]

for #1, can you give some examples?
for #2, он видел тех, кто читает книгу is the only possible version, even though it is clear that there were multiple people reading.

[philena.livejournal.com]

Here is the distinction between кто and который as relative pronouns that I have learned:

When the noun preceding the relativizer is a pronoun, use кто. Below, тот is a pronoun, so you use кто:
Я думаю о том, кто любит меня.
I think about the one who loves me. (I've decided to use думать as my example verb now, rather than читать, for independent reasons.)

When the noun preceding the relativizer is a full noun, use который. Below, человек is a full noun, so you use который.
Я думаю о человеке, который любит меня.
I think about the man who loves me.

I am asking whether sentences like the first one above can you use any pronoun, or only тот? For example, can you use pronouns such as я, ты, мы, as shown below?

Он думает обо мне, кто любит его.
Он думает о тебе, кто любит его.
Он думает о нас, кто любит его.

Or must you always use который:

Он думает обо мне, который любит его.
Он думает о тебе, который любит его.
Он думает о нас, которые любят его.

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, you should use который in all three cases. However I should say that all these examples still sound awkward and unnatural, and you will do better if you avoid this construct altogether.

[oryx_and_crake]

Она читающа книгу
Она была читающа книгу

Он видел меня, кто читаю книгу
Он видел меня, кто читает книгу.

These are all wrong. Your examples in p.2 are correct.

Он видел тебя, который читаешь книгу. is also wrong. Он видел тебя, который читал книгу is correct, in theory, but it is still very awkward and no one use participles like that.

[philena.livejournal.com]

You say Он видел тебя, который читал книгу is correct in theory. Suppose we put it in present tense: it would be Он видит тебя, который читаЕТ книгу? It would not be Он видит тебя, который читаЕШЬ книгу?

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

"Он видел тебя, который читал книгу" does sound slightly less bad than "Он видел тебя, кто читал книгу" but they are both extremely awkward and I would never use either one in speech or in writing. You could, however, insert appropriate direct objects into these sentences to make them okay:

"Он видел тебя - того, кто читает книгу" or
"Он видел тебя - человека, который читает книгу".

As to the second question, you'd never say "Он видит тебя, который читаЕШЬ книгу". You see, even if you don't have "тот" or "человек" or other similar word in a sentence like this, it is still implicit, and it'll always be in third person. Thus the verb will always be in third person.

[philena.livejournal.com]

Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to figure out: whether the verb in the relative clause could ever be anything but third-person. Apparently not.

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, it will be Он видит тебя, который читаЕТ книгу. In theory. In practice, no one ever talks that way. The way I would put it is "Он видел, как ты читал/читаешь книгу" or "Он видит, как ты читаешь книгу".

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

1. First, it is читающая. Second, you can't use participle as predicate, but you can use it as object or subject - then you need a dash: Она - читающая книгу (She is the one reading the book). Here it sounds rather crumbersome, but sometimes used: "Я - читающий на ветру..." (М. Башаков) - as a subject, "я глас вопиющего в пустыне" (Ин. 1:23) - as an object (I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness).

2. Он видел человека, читающего книгу. - just correct.

Он видел меня, читающую книгу.
Он видел его, читающего книгу.
Он видел нас, читающих книгу.
Well, it's a calque from English but also possible. The preferable usage is:
Он видел, как я читала книгу.
Он видел, как он читал книгу (at least one of 'он's needs precise definition, I guess you realise).
Он видел, как мы читаем книгу.

3. Он видел того, кто читает книгу is correct together with Он видел читающего книгу.

[philena.livejournal.com]

To confirm your answer to #1: you are saying active participles cannot ever be short form, the way passive participles and adjectives can? Here is the pattern I'm trying to expand:

Она красива (not necessarily красивая)
She is pretty
Книга прочитанна (not necessarily прочитанная)
The book is read/has been read
Она читающа
She is reading (Also expressed as Она читает)

But the third one is wrong, you say: it must be читающая (it can never be читающа) and you cannot use it as a predicate. Is that right?

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, active participle is not used in short form. The passive participle short form, while acceptable, is not recommended either, as it sounds very awkward and unnatural. Even the long form is very bookish and should be avoided in oral speech altogether. In short, while "мальчик, читающий книгу" is OK, "книга, читаемая мальчиком" is only acceptable in high register written speech, and "книга читаема мальчиком", while grammatically correct, is not acceptable at all. People just don't talk that way.

Please note that "она читающая" does not work as a standalone sentence. You can only use it as "side ornament", e.g. Девушка, читающая книгу, не замечала, что на нее едет трамвай.

[philena.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

Never fear; I will not ever try to use these in spoken speech. I'm aware that most participial constructions are extremely formal and unnatural. I'm just interested in seeing how far I can push the forms, and I think you've helped me find the limit.

[oryx_and_crake]

You are very welcome.

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

>>you are saying active participles cannot ever be short form, the way passive participles and adjectives can?

The only one I can think of os вездесущий/вездесущ (omnipresent). Сущий, an old slavonic participle of быть, is now taken as plain adjective (in everyday speech used as 'real' like in 'real nightmare' - сущий кошмар), but per se doesn't have a short form while вездесущий (also often used in ironical connotation) does.

[philena.livejournal.com]

Interesting! Thank you.

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

1.
The form of sentences
"Она читающа книгу.
Она была читающа книгу."
are not correct at all.
Russian people never say it in this form. If you want to use the participles you should write:
Девушка (or "женщина", or any women's proper name (Марина, Даша, Наталья ...)), читающая книгу.
Девушка (or "женщина", or any women's proper name (Марина, Даша, Наталья ...)), читавшая книгу.

2.
Он видел меня, читающИМ книгу.
Он видел его, читающИМ книгу.
right

3. Only this is correct:
Он видел меня, читающИМ книгу.

For 2. and 3.
Он видЕЛ - This part of sentence use Russian Past Tense (according to english "Present Perfect" or "The Past Indefinite"). This Russian Past Tense define the form of participle in second part of this sentence:
читающИМ книгу

[bartoli.livejournal.com]

"Он видел меня, читающИМ книгу.
Он видел его, читающИМ книгу.
right

3. Only this is correct:
Он видел меня, читающИМ книгу." Абсурдная фраза.

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

"Он видел меня, читающИМ книгу.
Он видел его, читающИМ книгу."

You don't need commas in these sentences.

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

Например Вам дали задание прочитать книгу и Вы ее прочитали. А кто-то говорит, что вы ее не читали. Тогда Вы указываете на человека, который может засвидетельствовать что он видел Вас читающим книгу и говорите: "Он видел меня читающим книгу". Совершенно нормальная ситуация. Да и вообще, здесь грамматика обсуждается а не конкретная ситуация. Вместо "читающим" может быть "жующим", а вместо "книгу" - "яблоко".

[oryx_and_crake]

Thank you for your contribution! However I have to remind that the working language of this community is English.

As to your point, "Он видел меня читающим книгу" is possible but very unnatural. 100% of native speakers in this situation would say Он видел, как я читал(а) книгу.

[ekaterinak-rus.livejournal.com]

Actually, this form is rather "Он(а)видел(а), как я читал(а)книгу".
But if you very want to use participles or if you want to explain the Russian grammar rules then it is "Он(а) видел(а) меня читающим книгу"