[identity profile] slovami.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] learn_russian
I found an interesting informal expression in Russian while doing my homework. It's

катиться в тартарары

from this context:
"Вся финансовая система Америки... катится в тартарары и увлекает за собой благополучную Европу и динамичную Азию."
"The entire American financial system... is going to hell in a handbasket, and dragging stable Europe and dynamic Asia behind it."
(For non-native speakers: Everything is going to hell in a handbasket! is an English expression meaning that a situation is becoming very bad. It has a kind of humorous tone.)

However, the dictionary definition (which gives the verb not as катиться, but провалиться) doesn't match this exactly. It says that this phrase is used not to describe a bad situation, but in a situation where you want someone to (metaphorically) get as far away as possible. So maybe something like "hey, go to hell!" (Тартарары comes from Tartarus, the underworld in Greek mythology.)

Do any native speakers have comments? Is this expression at all common? Is my translation right? I'd also like to know where the stress is on тартарары. Thank you!

Date: 2008-10-04 12:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] besisland.livejournal.com
“Катиться” here means to move (literally roll) toward “тартарары” (hell, precipice, death).

I used to hear the expression “катиться в тартарары”, although it is rarely used nowadays. Your translation is correct.

“Ы” is stressed, and the secondary stress, er, falls upon the first “а”.

Date: 2008-10-04 12:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cherniavska.livejournal.com
катиться в тартарарЫ
I quite like your translation. I think it is stylistically correct. What dictionary did you consult? I do not see any problems with using that expression the way you did in an informal context.

Date: 2008-10-04 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ex-roumor.livejournal.com
yeah your probly right bout its Greek descendance
though its rarely used tbh

Date: 2008-10-04 01:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crimeanelf.livejournal.com
What an awesome translation! I feel that my English has just improved.

Honestly, those little things you don't find in textbooks, you have to learn them from daily life of native speakers, and the speakers around me use very academic English. My last little treasure was "Where is my pen?.. It put legs and disappeared" (did I say it right? there was no possibility to write it down right there and then). It was a long-wanted translation of Russian "Где моя ручка? Кто-то ей ноги приделал".

I wish there would be an organized way of learning those in both languages.

Date: 2008-10-05 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] joliecanard.livejournal.com
"grew legs" is most likely here.

Date: 2008-10-05 05:23 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-10-04 01:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shimshoni.livejournal.com
Russian word "ТаратарарЫ" (or ТартAр, singlular) means the same as English "Tartarus" - they both come from Greek Τάρταρος, Tartarus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus) is sort of a hell in Greek mythology

Date: 2008-10-04 07:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
BTW in Church Slavonic Тартаръ sometimes substitutes for hell.

Date: 2008-10-04 08:31 am (UTC)
avysk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] avysk
In normal Russian "тартар" means hell. (But very rarely used.)

Date: 2008-10-04 09:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Just FYI, Church Slavonic is not "abnormal Russian," it's a separate language, way more ancient than modern Russian, and with a different descent (from Old Bulgarian and proto-Macedonian.) It influenced modern Russian heavily, though.

Date: 2008-10-04 10:02 am (UTC)
avysk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] avysk
I'm aware of that. I meant under "normal" not "нормальный" but "обычный, обыкновенный".

Date: 2008-10-04 10:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
So it's "regular" -- just FYI, Church Slavonic is not some kind of "irregular" Russian, either :)

Date: 2008-10-04 12:35 pm (UTC)
avysk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] avysk
I'm aware of that as well. I meant that "Тартар" is a perfectly normal, regular word in Russian. There were absolutely nothing (directly on indirectly) about Church Slavonic in my message.

Date: 2008-10-04 12:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
It was in mine, though. The adjective you used in your response to my comment made the reader feel that you were thinking about Church Slavonic as "abnormal Russian," as soon you defined your case as "normal Russian," as opposed to Church Slavonic mentioned in my comment you replied to. It's just logic :)

BTW the rare, but still existent, modern Russian "тартар" can be both the influence from CS's тартаръ, and the direct infruence from Greek -- as Greek mythology has been widely studied in Russia in 19th and 20th century, and many people know Greek myths, at least from Nikolai Kun's "Мифы древней Греции" that was printed in a few million copies in Soviet time alone.

Date: 2008-10-04 02:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Alright. Test passed. Gimme five :)

Date: 2008-10-04 08:30 am (UTC)
avysk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] avysk
Not тартАр but тАртар.

Date: 2008-10-04 09:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Oh, yes: it's тАртар, NOT тартАр. But тартарарЫ is all right (and NOT "таратарары").

Date: 2008-10-04 06:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shimshoni.livejournal.com
o, yes. sure. my bad:) тАртар of cause

Date: 2008-10-04 08:29 am (UTC)
avysk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] avysk
"ТартарарЫ" is the spoken form of "тАртар".

Date: 2008-10-04 12:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kehlen-crow.livejournal.com
There is a related expression, "Куда мы катимся?" What is this world coming to?

So it could be that "катиться в тартарары" is its logical amplification.

We also say, "Докатились." Meaning that we are now living worse than we used to (because there was not much effort involved to rectify the situation.)

And I agree with others that your expression is not used overly much today but neither is it really rare.

Date: 2008-10-04 12:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Катиться в тартарары is a set expression, known for at least two hundred years. It is not too widely used, but googling it up gives at least ten thousand occurencies.

Date: 2008-10-04 03:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malim-praedari.livejournal.com
...plus all the possible variations on the theme (e.g., "До чего мы докатились?" = "What have we come to?"; "Если он будет так продолжать, то докатится до совершенно скотского состояния" = "He will sink to a totally beastly state if he carries on like this", etc.)

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