The haunting of the "negative genitive"

[david-us.livejournal.com]

Just when I thought I was beginning to understand this ...

I know I seem to be obsessing on this issue, but it keeps rearing its ugly head. More and more I'm discovering that this construction frequently occurs in Russian.

From what I have learned here, the genitive form of the direct object is often used in negative sentences when that object is meant to be very general ...

For instance:

Я не получил ответ. (no genitive)
I did not receive the answer. (i.e. the specific answer I was hoping for.)

As opposed to ...

Я не получил ответа. (genitive)
I did not receive an answer. (any answer!)

Now I stumble across the following sentence in my studies:

Не ешьте этих яблок, они ещё зелёные.
Don't eat these apples, they're still green. (This is the book's translation)

To me, this seems fairly specific with regards to the "green apples." Not just any green apples, rather, these specific apples.

How would you translate the following sentences in Russian?

"Don't eat green apples, they'll make you sick."

"If you eat that green apple, you'll get sick."

Thanks!

Comments

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

'Не ешь эти яблоки' can mean either not to eat these particular apples or not to eat any of the kind, depending on the context. In turn, the genitive form 'не ешь этих яблок' can hardly be used in the former context.

For example, there's a widely known (thanks to Microsoft) pangram 'съешь еще этих мягких французских булок, да выпей чаю'. If the object wasn't in the genitive form ('съешь еще эти мягкие булки'), the pangram could be interpreted somewhat as 'eat the same buns you've just eaten'. But when the genitive is used, the reader understands that the pangram is about eating more buns of the kind.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Don't be quick to decide for the reader >:). I can imagine contexts for pretty different messages transmitted by the same text. It's a matter of choice whether or not to go with certain seemingly more plausible of them.
Plus, even if I would happen to be an anomaly, are you absolutely 100% sure that suggestions delivered won't differ when situations and personalities will? :)

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

I assume the most adequate and frequent context as you can always find one that breaks any rule.

That would be a great deal of information to process if we were trying to explain Russian to foreigners in all contexts at once.

[david-us.livejournal.com]

What I'm gathering from this exchange between all you native Russian speakers is that, fundamentally, it will be understood whichever way one chooses to say such phrases.

I will never be fluent in Russian. But it would be nice to be functional and, at a minimum, understood without seeming to be a complete illiterate.

As far as learning Russian is concerned, "I have bigger fish to fry." Now there's a great English idiomatic phrase. Is there an equivalent Russian idiom?

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

The widely used cliche conveying the similar meaning is 'у меня есть дела и поважнее' if I get the phrase right. But this expression isn't idiomatic.

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

Elaborating the fish topic, the word 'наклёвываться' (originates from клёв, клевать) just came up to my mind. It is interchangeable with 'намечаться' almost in all cases. Thus you can say for example 'у меня другое важное дело наклёвывается'.