The haunting of the "negative genitive"

[david-us.livejournal.com]

Just when I thought I was beginning to understand this ...

I know I seem to be obsessing on this issue, but it keeps rearing its ugly head. More and more I'm discovering that this construction frequently occurs in Russian.

From what I have learned here, the genitive form of the direct object is often used in negative sentences when that object is meant to be very general ...

For instance:

Я не получил ответ. (no genitive)
I did not receive the answer. (i.e. the specific answer I was hoping for.)

As opposed to ...

Я не получил ответа. (genitive)
I did not receive an answer. (any answer!)

Now I stumble across the following sentence in my studies:

Не ешьте этих яблок, они ещё зелёные.
Don't eat these apples, they're still green. (This is the book's translation)

To me, this seems fairly specific with regards to the "green apples." Not just any green apples, rather, these specific apples.

How would you translate the following sentences in Russian?

"Don't eat green apples, they'll make you sick."

"If you eat that green apple, you'll get sick."

Thanks!

Comments

[uncle-gora.livejournal.com]

"Don't eat green apples, they'll make you sick."
Не ешь зелёные яблоки, иначе тебе от них будет плохо.
"If you eat that green apple, you'll get sick."
Если ты съешь это зелёное яблоко, тебе будет плохо.

[uncle-gora.livejournal.com]

Асtually you are probably more interested in the foloowing form of saying the first sentance:
Не ешь зелёных яблок, ...

[david-us.livejournal.com]

> "Don't eat green apples, they'll make you sick."
>Не ешь зелёные яблоки, иначе тебе от них будет плохо.

I notice you did not say "зелёных яблок" which somewhat goes against what I have been told about these type of generalized negative sentences.

Why didn't you use "зелёных яблок"?

[uncle-gora.livejournal.com]

I didn't use "зелёных яблок" because the only place where you would use that instead зелёные яблоки is in old books. I do not think I can find any reason for that either then to say that we do not use genitive case in those cases anymore. There could be others in this community that know the exact reason for that.

[david-us.livejournal.com]

Everybody keeps telling me that the use of the genitive case for direct objects in negative sentences is "bookish" or "formal". Yet, I see this all the time. It seems much more common than I'm led to believe from this discussion group.

[atlantis555.livejournal.com]

David, all I can tell you is not to get into it too much. Не ешьте эти яблоки и Не ешьте этих яблок are absolutely the same in meaning whatever all kinds of advisors would tell you. Ab-so-lute-ly. It's just that the 2nd variant is a bit more bookish than the 1st one and ALL.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Yup.

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

you're wrong.

[atlantis555.livejournal.com]

Хе-хе. Извольте пояснить, какая такая значительная разница существует меж этими фразами, что иностранцу надо тщательно её вызубрить и применять по делу? Вы сами-то в школе проходили эту разницу? Мне вот в школе не объясняли в чём разница между "яблоки" и "яблок", видимо, не было нужды. Имхо, разница тут такая же, как между "isn't" и "is not".

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

иностранец в посте абсолютно правильно разницу сию называет. Вам фраза "не ешь этих яблок" не режет глаз? мне — режет.
я согласна с тем, что разница эта не настолько критична, чтобы называть один из вариантов прям уж абслютно безграмотным, но она есть.

[atlantis555.livejournal.com]

Мне эта фраза потому, видимо, глаз не режет, что я в детстве уйму исторических книжек прочёл с качественной литобработкой. И эти все древние герои как только не изъяснялись, вот и привык. Вы видите разницу чуть ли не грамматическую. Я вижу только стилистическую. Обе фразы говорят, что яблоки не должны быть скушаны. Но одна чутку возвышеннее.

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

ну речь-то идёт наверняка о современном русском.
разница смысловая. генетивный оборот — относится к (как видно из названия) роду объектов, аккузативный — просто к объектам. согласна, что первое вполне может быть метафорой второго, но в таком случае оно приобретает некую особую усиленность.

стилистическая тоже может быть, да, я этого и не отрицаю.

[atlantis555.livejournal.com]

Современный русский - это не какой-то один единственный правильный вариант, а за остальное всё двойку с минусом. Не эсперанто в конце концов.

Вот взять первый дэвидовский вопрос про ответы.
Вы считаете, что он правильно проинтуичил, мол, "не получил ответ" - это если ответ был как-то заранее обговорен, чуть ли не взвешен на весах, каким он должен быть. А не "получил ответа" - это, якобы, человек сидел, ждал, ковырял пальцем в носу и не дождался. И, значит, во втором случае он не может сказать "я не получил ответа". Ну это же глупость.
Если и есть какое-то мегаакадемическое обоснование использования этих двух оборотов в рамках современного русяза, то ошибка тут будет гораздо меньшей, чем если не поставить запятую перед "чтобы".
А вы вместо того, чтобы сказать американцу "камон, всё одинаково, забей и учись дальше" начинаете парить его какими-то дремучими умствованиями.
Он ж у себя в Америке так чётко не говорит, как вы его тут научить пытаетесь. Эт кстати ко всем относится, кто тут флуд развёл, сделав их мухи слона.

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

ну, я довольно чётко ощущаю, что "не получил ответ" — это THE answer, а "не получил ответа" — это "an answer"; то есть в первом случае — некоего конкретного, а во втором — какого бы то ни было, любого. и разница эта определённо есть.

я согласна (и уже не раз сообщила!), что это ошибка негрубая — но ошибка.

а подход Ваш, по-моему, неверен. человек спросил — люди ответили. не мне и не Вам решать, нужно ли ему "в своей Америке" знать о тонкостях употребления. если они есть и он спросил — значит, нужно.

[atlantis555.livejournal.com]

Тут дело, видите ли в том, что эти случаи, во-первых, взаимозаменяемы. Во-вторых, мне, например, трудно представить себе, что в романтических стихах даже нашего века будет чаще использоватся "ответ", чем "ответа". Значит, по вашему, все an answer надо переводить "ответа", это, дескать, правильно. Глаза у вас не изрежутся такое читать?

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

и ещё раз повторяю: это нюансы тонкие-тонкие. прям вот тонюсенькие. допускающие вариации. но "есть вариации" ≠ "нет разницы", ага?

[atlantis555.livejournal.com]

Ну ладно, похоже, я выжал из вас максимум уступок, мир :)

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

:)))) мир.

[atlantis555.livejournal.com]

Описка. И, значит, во втором случае он не может сказать "я не получил ответ", конечно же. Сам уже запутался :)

[oryx_and_crake]

Please note that the working language of this community is English. Thank you.

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

sorry. but i don't think our dialog brought something new into this discussion...

[oryx_and_crake]

Exactly. Avoiding flood and flame (meaning personal remarks and unnecessary comments that really don't add anything to the discussion) is another rule of this community.

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

sorry again. i'll try to.

[david-us.livejournal.com]

Oh, I was having fun following it, although I didn't understand everything they were saying.

[oryx_and_crake]

Please note that the working language of this community is English. Thank you.

[karakal.livejournal.com]

+1
apart from a note that яблок is perhaps a little bit stylish. I mean яблок is OK in that particular example. But generally, яблоки is 'safer' for a foreign speaker.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

atlantis555 is right, it looks like you dive into it too deep :) THere is a slight difference in meaning, but you may as well neglect it in most cases.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Perhaps, the case with genitive case relates not with the any apples or answer (in your examples), but rather with some certain sort of the apples or answer. The choice of the sort is pretty wide but depends on the context.

The second part of the sentence is the major context here, it's that part that seriously narrowed the abstract genitive-case apples.

translations

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

"Don't eat green apples, they'll make you sick."
Зелёных яблок не ешь, от них тебя будет тошнить.

Any of the green apples out there? (<— which were my thoughts when translating) Or possible unripe fruits on some previously mentioned apple tree? Or the green fruits just brought back home by the speaker? Who knows, there's no context, there is no obvious intonation (it may be sufficient and is important).

"If you eat that green apple, you'll get sick."
Если съешь это зелёное яблоко, будешь мучаться животом.

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

it seems to me that Russian sentence you stumbled across is simply incorrect. "Не ешьте эти яблоки, они ещё зелёные." = "Don't eat the apples, there still green." and "Не ешьте зелёных яблок, от них можно заболеть." = "Don't eat green apples, they'll make you sick."

although, as you see, most of Russian speakers don't see any difference. well, this rule seems to become less and less relevant nowadays... but it DEFINITELY exists.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Then could you explain that rule, please? How come the russian sentence is incorrect? I definitely do not see your point.

Bookishness, dialects, simple toying with the language to make is sound more eloquent, less bumpy — there's a variety of possible reasons not to declare the strict rules triumph in the field in question.

On top of that, for "Don't eat these apples, they're still green." aren't we free to imagine different additional context?

When it's an aplle storage, through which a company treads. To the right and left of you are different kinds of apples, red, green, yellow. And the guide provides his take on the assortment…
русский: "Эти яблоки мне не нравятся, зато мама от них без ума. А вот те, в углу — кислющие, но это такой сорт, из них варенье — объедение. Вот этих в прошлом году и в этом урожай огромен, мы ими всех угощаем.
Вот этих яблок не ешьте, они ещё зелёные. На зиму собрали, они потихоньку дойдут и не испортятся."
translation: "These apples are not to my liking, but my mom is a fan. Those in the corner are sour, but it's natural for them, they make a delicious jam. And those ones are a bumper crop this and last year, we treat everyone.
Don't eat these apples, they're stiil green. We gathered them for the winter, they'll ripen slowly and won't go rotten."

^^ I don't feel it to be wrong at all.

[alphyna.livejournal.com]

and i do feel this sentence wrong. of perhaps too strong... in this context we see more advice, but "не ешь этих яблок" sounds terribly strict. something like "don't eat these apples AT ALL", nevernevernever. at least, it sounds to me like that.

well, i may be wrong and that surely is not a strict rule, but... i'd rather say "не ешь эти яблоки".

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

You feel right. The sentence isn't wrong at all. It's perfectly correct. But with this sentence it would be fine to use both "этих яблок" и "эти яблоки".

[annyway.livejournal.com]

This is a question of grammar only, not of meaning. Sometimes you should use genitive and somrtimes - accusative.
Unfortunately, my english is too bad, so I can only give you a link to an article in a famous russian grammar textbook: http://www.spelling.spb.ru/rosenthal/alpha/r201.htm
I hope somebody could translate and explane this for you!

[arashi-opera.livejournal.com]

I'm just another average Russian, and I totally agree with atlantis555. Don't get into it too much.

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

'Не ешь эти яблоки' can mean either not to eat these particular apples or not to eat any of the kind, depending on the context. In turn, the genitive form 'не ешь этих яблок' can hardly be used in the former context.

For example, there's a widely known (thanks to Microsoft) pangram 'съешь еще этих мягких французских булок, да выпей чаю'. If the object wasn't in the genitive form ('съешь еще эти мягкие булки'), the pangram could be interpreted somewhat as 'eat the same buns you've just eaten'. But when the genitive is used, the reader understands that the pangram is about eating more buns of the kind.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Don't be quick to decide for the reader >:). I can imagine contexts for pretty different messages transmitted by the same text. It's a matter of choice whether or not to go with certain seemingly more plausible of them.
Plus, even if I would happen to be an anomaly, are you absolutely 100% sure that suggestions delivered won't differ when situations and personalities will? :)

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

I assume the most adequate and frequent context as you can always find one that breaks any rule.

That would be a great deal of information to process if we were trying to explain Russian to foreigners in all contexts at once.

[david-us.livejournal.com]

What I'm gathering from this exchange between all you native Russian speakers is that, fundamentally, it will be understood whichever way one chooses to say such phrases.

I will never be fluent in Russian. But it would be nice to be functional and, at a minimum, understood without seeming to be a complete illiterate.

As far as learning Russian is concerned, "I have bigger fish to fry." Now there's a great English idiomatic phrase. Is there an equivalent Russian idiom?

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

The widely used cliche conveying the similar meaning is 'у меня есть дела и поважнее' if I get the phrase right. But this expression isn't idiomatic.

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

Elaborating the fish topic, the word 'наклёвываться' (originates from клёв, клевать) just came up to my mind. It is interchangeable with 'намечаться' almost in all cases. Thus you can say for example 'у меня другое важное дело наклёвывается'.

[bartoli.livejournal.com]

 In negative sentences the direct object can appear both in Gen. and in Acc., including the cases with emphasized negation, if the sentence has words ничей, никакой or the particle ни.

Я не помню его лицо. Я не нашла никакого словаря.
Я не помню его лица. I haven’t found any dictionary.
I don’t remember his face.
Я не купила ни сыра, ни ветчины.
Я не купила ни сыр, ни ветчину.
I’ve bought neither cheese, nor ham.

With animate nouns and proper names the Acc. case is preferable.

Я не знаю Анну. Ты не знаешь его жену?
I don’t know Ann. Don’t you know his wife?
Марк не любит Лондон.
Mark doesn’t like London.

A Living Russian Grammar

[vakhitov.livejournal.com]

You can use both, but there is one case where you shouldn't use genitive case - with people's names.

Today, "я не видел Софьи Павловны" sounds rather awkward, though there were times when it used to be OK.

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

If I had any authority to advise Russian-speaking people in this community, I would have asked them not to think of their own language as of something with only one correct way to convey meaning, and remember that one's own perception of language doesn't necessarily constitute the general point of view on the topic.

Some variants discussed in this community are best explained as having only usual (explained by usus, i.e. common usage) difference, and that means that native speakers shouldn't go too far trying to find some theoretical (stylistical, grammatical, etc) explanation.

[david-us.livejournal.com]

Yet, if there is some grammatical rule that holds true with consistency, I think it serves the student well because it gives him a foundation to build upon.

What you seem to be suggesting is that a student is better served by trying to immerse himself in the language and to simply develop a "feel" for how it is spoken. That only works if the student is truly immersed. Sadly, not everybody trying to learn a foreign language has the benefit of immersion, therefore, they have to learn rules and apply them. It's not as if we are a Russian toddler growing up in an environment where every word they hear is Russian.

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

Not really. I was speaking about people trying to find a rule for everything while there are many cases (one could see it looking at the types of questions asked in this community) where there are no rule or theoretical basis. In some cases we speak or write in certain way not because the system of Russian language doesn't allow us to speak or write differently, but because we usually speak or write like this. And it is really where you could benefit from a language immersion. And speaking about immersion, I would strongly advise you against inventing "rules" in place of just usual way of writing/speaking, because these "rules" would make your life as a Russian-speaker a lot more awkward.

I would not say that you, not being a Russian toddler, cannot grasp the usual way of using language. You should read (and listen, too) more Russian texts, and eventually you'll develop a feeling of what variant is more appropriate where there are many variants possible.

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

Don't eat green apples, they'll make you sick.
Не ешь/ешьте зеленых яблок, от них тебе/Вам/вам будет плохо.
Не ешь/ешьте зеленые яблоки, от них тебе/Вам/вам будет плохо.

If you eat that green apple, you'll get sick.
Если ты/Вы съешь/съедите это зеленое яблоко, тебе/Вам станет плохо.

(I would also point to the word 'станет' used here instead of 'будет' because with 'будет' It would be ambiguous and could mean 'you will regret' as in 'you will be punished for eating my precious green apple' :).

In the latter case I would never say "Если ты съешь этого яблока..."
However, it is very possible that I would say "Если ты съешь этого пирога..." in which case it would mean a part of the pie, not the whole pie as in "Если ты съешь этот пирог..."

As they've already said here, don't concentrate too much on this topic. :)