(no subject)

[bellezzarubata.livejournal.com]

I'm unclear as to when I should use certain cases.  This is my current understanding:


Accusative is used when you're talking about something/direct object, such as:

я хочу собаку
я вижу его


Genitive is used when you're talking about ownership, such as:

это его книгы
Is ownership (with special modifiers or more?) also applied to "зовут"? -- Её зовут _____.


And how does Dative apply to age if it's purpose is to explain an indirect object? I'm not making the corellation, sorry.

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

Это его книгИ - yes, его here seems to be "он" in genitive, but in fact the situation is a little bit more complicated and его here is not a personal pronoun but a possessive pronoun (compare: Это его книги. Это мои книги. Это наши книги. Это Васины книги, i.e. books that belong to Vasya.) However, in another construction genitive is indeed used to indicate ownership: собака соседа, книги Маши, дом сестры

ownership has nothing to do with "ее зовут" - it is just that the verb звать requires a subject in genitive. Зовут кого? ее/его/их

I did not understand your third question - could you possible give a specific example?

[bellezzarubata.livejournal.com]

In my textbook it states that the Dative case is used to form statements about age but I've been reading that it applies to indirect objects.

ему двадцать лет - ему is the indirect?

I'm just having issues with the correlation, if it is in fact about indirect objects and age.

[oryx_and_crake]

Oh, I see now. Yes, in Ему двадцать лет - ему is in Dative.

[bellezzarubata.livejournal.com]

So, aside from special modifiers, would it be correct to say

Кати двадцать лет

I know you said that cases do not solely apply to one thing but would it be fair to say the Dative case deals with indirect objects and all indirect objects are in the Dative case?

Sorry, trying to understand here.

[oryx_and_crake]

It's КатЕ, not КатИ. Otherwise it is OK.

Dative case deals with indirect objects and all indirect objects are in the Dative case
--
Actually, I am not sure what an indirect object is, but in any case I think that you cannot make such sweeping generalizations.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

An indirect object is one which isn't active in the verb.

The reason for the name is that verbs (in English, and Latin) which are "indirect" have a preposition between the subject, and the object.

"I saw him" take the accusative/direct object.

"The book was given tohim" takes the indirect object (I put it in the past tense to avoid the book coming between the verb and the object, which might have been more confusing).

TK

[oryx_and_crake]

Thanks, I sorted this out already. Unfortunately, it will not help the OP because the indirect objects, it seems, can take practically any case in Russian.

[giantantattack.livejournal.com]

The reason for the name is that verbs (in English, and Latin) which are "indirect" have a preposition between the subject, and the object.

This isn't always the case, though.

Cf.
I gave the book to him.
I gave him the book.

Both are indirect, but only the former construction requires the preposition. The latter precludes it.

[oryx_and_crake]

P.S. I looked it up. I was right - no generalizations here. Sorry. An indirect object in Russian can be in any case whatsoever, except I suppose nominative.

[belacane.livejournal.com]

ему двадцать лет - he is 20 years old.... (if you translate it in russian it's literally to him are 20 years).

if you like you can think of it as the direct object in that it is exactly the same ему that would be used if you were to say:

I have (to) him a book я дала ему книгу. (book is the direct object, him is the indirect object)

In both cases, ему is used.


But I always remembered to use use dative in the case of ages by thinking of the literal translation

I'm 20 years old = to me are 20 years.
He's 8 years old = to him are 8 years...etc.

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, this construction is similar to Spanish "Me gusta", if this is any help.

"Мне 20 лет" - literally, To me are 20 years
"Мне нравится плавание" - literally, [To] me pleases swimming

[avoider.livejournal.com]

I think the verb звать requires a subject in accusative
(Папу зовут not папы зовут)

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, you are right, my mistake

"ее зовут"

[irinafreckles.livejournal.com]

Exuse me, but "ее зовут" - accusative, not genetive.

Re: "ее зовут"

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, you are right, my mistake

Re: "ее зовут"

[belacane.livejournal.com]

it's accusative, but personal pronouns in accusative and genitive are exactly the same. (unless there is for example a preposition such as 'у' in front of it)

[andrey-bessonov.livejournal.com]

зовут requires accusative, it's just a homonym

[oryx_and_crake]

You are the third to point that out for me :-)

[andrey-bessonov.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I just hurried to put things right :-) Just like poor Piglet who wanted to give Eeyore his present oh so badly!

[joliecanard.livejournal.com]

No no no, звать requires an OBJECT in ACCUSATIVE. The pronouns are the same in accusative and genitive, so it looks like genitive.
The subject of Зовут кого? is an invisible они.

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, I am always confusing subject and object. As to genitive/accusative issue here, you are actually the fourth person to correct me in this discussion.

[oryx_and_crake]

P.S. You cannot expect a case being used in one and only one situation (e.g. ownership). I.e. genitive is used to indicate ownership but this is not the only situation when genitive is used, far from it.

[bellezzarubata.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm attempting to understand when a case is used, perhaps there are some guides or tips to it? I feel like there should be a way for it to make sense aside from simply memorizing.

[oryx_and_crake]

I am not sure. I think you'll have to memorize most of it. However there should be some laws directing it.
Just off the top of my head:
Nominative - when someone is an actor. (Tjis includes passive voice constructions.)
Мальчик купил книгу. (nominative, accusative)
Мальчик is in nominative because he is the one who acts. Книгу is in accusative because it is an object of an action.
However, if you use the passive voice, the cases get somewhat reversed.
Книга была куплена мальчиком. (Книга is now in nominative, because it is "the main character" of the sentence, and мальчик is in instrumental because... just because.)
Мальчик копает землю лопатой. Here it is easy - мальчик is in nominative because he is the actor, землю is in accusative because it is the subject, and лопата is an instrument therefore it is in instrumental.

Genitive is used, as you said, to signify ownership, but not only for that.
У нас есть хлеб - we have bread, хлеб is in nominative, but for У нас нет хлеба it will be genitive.

Prepositional is normally used with prepositions, like в (in) or о (about):
Мы были в лесу. Мама рассказала о школе.

However the preposition "в" can also be used with other cases, е.g. accusative: ходить в школу.

Hope this helps and sorry I cannot give you more straightforward rules.

[giantantattack.livejournal.com]

Technically, in "в лесу", лес is in the locative case, not prepositional.

Prepositional - Я думаю о лесе.
Locative - Я стою в лесу.

Same for words like снег, мост, порт, etc.

[oryx_and_crake]

They did not teach us about locative case at school, therefore it does not exist.
:-)

[giantantattack.livejournal.com]

Боже мой!

What about the vocative case? ;-)

[oryx_and_crake]

Never!!!

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

You will have to memorise (otherwise verb control gets really hard, some prepositions use, generally, one case, but at other times they don't в, and на for example are sometimes prepositional/locative, and sometimes (with verbs of motion) accusative (and depending on what you want to say; controlling the vehicle, vs. riding in it, they aren't as simple as it looks).

What will happen is that, through use, they will start to "feel right" but you will still have to look up what prepositions they take (and for what) and incorporate them by recall.

There are general rules, but nothing hard and fast.

TK

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

The truth about cases is that they are an artificial tool to describe various language patterns, they are secondary to patterns and don't make much sense by themselves. If you ask a native speaker what case has been used for a certain word in a sentence he or she would have to replace that word with a question word and figure the case from it (assuming they know what a "case" is at all). This works by transforming the question with the same pattern, for example "Ему 20 лет" is a pattern "<Кому?> <Сколько?> лет" and in this pattern "Ему" answers to "кому?" hence it's in Dative case. However your books don't lie, "ему" is indeed an indirect object here because this pattern has been made from "<Сколько?> лет исполнилось <Кому?>" and thus you could say "20 лет исполнилось ему" or better "Ему исполнилось 20(лет)" because we are really talking about him, not 20 years.

In short - try to memorize patterns themselves because cases are there only to describe the patterns.

[bellezzarubata.livejournal.com]

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense.

[katiroma.livejournal.com]

Some of the most common situations:

Genitive:
absence: нет кого?/чего? (=there is no smth./smb.) Здесь нет света - there is no light in here.
ownership (no preposition): книга (кого?) брата, хвост собаки
ownership (with preposition "у"): у брата есть книга, у собаки короткий хвост
origin, direction (from) - with preposition "от": подарок от брата, убежал от собаки

Dative:
give/say to smb.: сказать (кому?) другу, сестре
(but: give/say smth. is in accusative, direct object)
all constructions with "к" and "по" would be in dative: еду к другу, к сестре, летит по небу, плывёт по реке

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

It translates as, "there are this many years to "X".

Much as the verb нравиться translates best as, "It is pleasing/enjoyable to 'X'" rather than, "'X' likes 'Y'".

TK

[belacane.livejournal.com]

you also have to remember that accusative case for nouns (and adjectives that describe them too) that move and breath (people, animals) which are the direct object looks exactly like the genitive.

[oryx_and_crake]

No, this cannot be right.

Accusative: Увидеть кого? моего хорошего папу, мой новый стол
Genitive: Нет кого? моего хорошего папы, моего нового стола

I think you are confused by the fact that for some INanimate nouns accusative form is identical to nominative (Я увидел стол vs. Стол стоит на кухне)

[belacane.livejournal.com]

your example is poor though, because, masculine nouns that have feminine endings like папа decline like feminine nouns but the modifiers decline like masculine.

I did forget an important detail though....

What i said in the above note does NOT apply to feminine animate nouns.

so modified:
you also have to remember that accusative case for MASCULINE, NEUTER AND PLURAL nouns (and adjectives that describe them too) that move and breath (people, animals) which are the direct object looks exactly like the genitive.

but what you said is true as well.

[oryx_and_crake]

I think you'd better operate with paradigms (склонения) than with genders here, because words like папа and дядя are masculine too.