M.Berdy. Avoiding Profanity, Ignorance and Stupidity

[oryx_and_crake]

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2007/09/28/007.html

Another article by Michele Berdy, could be helpful to someone.

However, there is one mistake in it. "звезд с неба не хватает" does not mean "they don't have all the stars from the heavens", but "they
are unable to grab stars from heaven". "хватать" (to grab) which is the actual word used in this idiom is confused with "не хватает" (missing, lacking something).

Comments

[korolyeva525.livejournal.com]

Very interesting!

[dark-spectrum.livejournal.com]

hm, i think the first is okay too, because "have" is also means "иметь". I think that M.B. ment it in that way. And phrase will be "у них нет (не имеют) всех звезд"

[oryx_and_crake]

I don't think so. You can have either one meaning of хватать or the other but not both at once.

[dark-spectrum.livejournal.com]

it s not only about the exact word "хватать" it's about phrase and its meaning

[oryx_and_crake]

Exactly. In the meaning that Berdy assumes it would have been "ему не хватает звезд" or "у него не хватает звезд", but this phrase is ONLY used as "он звезд с неба не хватает" which excludes the possibility that you are proposing.

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

I believe in his translation it would be used like "he doesn't have all the stars from heaven, but he's a good guy anyway", which would mean exactly the same as "он звезд с неба не хватает, но он хороший парень". In this case having all the stars (in other words, the wealth) is the criterion of the same meaning as "grabbing the stars" (in other words, the ability to achieve wealth). That's why personally I don't think the translation is wrong. Besides, it sounds more natural to me than your version with "grabbing".

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

By the way, I had a long discussion with an native English speking friend of mine and in the end she said that both translations are bad. :) However, if the original one is used without "all", then it would have an exactly right meaning for her. So, "they don't have all the stars from the heavens"

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

Damn it! So many spelling errors! :) I must be really tired. Sorry.

[oryx_and_crake]

You say yourself it was an English native speaker, not a Russian native speaker. She just did not understand the difference between "он не хватает" and "ему не хватает", or maybe she was not familiar with the usage of this expression. "он не хватает" can only be translated with the verb "to grab".

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

We are all here native Russian speakers and we can't agree on the translation. I decided to ask a native English speaker which of the translation sound better to her. I explained how this idiom is used in Russian and what is the sense, and she said that "they don't have the stars from the heavens" is better because the verb "to grab" has a negative tint while the original Russian idiom doesn't have it, does it? May be I take the Russian idiom for something different than you do? For me it's not a negative description of a person. It's just a statement of the person's ordinariness. There is nothing negative in being an ordinary person.

By the way, you are not right in that "хватать" in this sense may only be translated as "to grab". It can as well be "to snatch". ;)

I believe you're trying to do a literal translation, which is wrong in most cases. Translating the sense, the figural meaning - that's what important!

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

You know, there is an English proverb: "Every cloud has a silver lining". Your approach to the translation would give us "У каждого облака есть серебряное окаймление", which would be a perfectly exact translation but would be hard to understand by Russians. My approach is to translate it as "Нет худа без добра", which is not an exact translation and doesn't even have the words from the original proverb, but is clearly and easily understandable.

[oryx_and_crake]

It is a very well-known demagogical approach to a discussion: invent something completely dumb and place it into your opponent's mouth, and then you will be victorious in disproving it. I am not going to go on arguing with you. Bye.

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

It's a very well-known approach to finishing a discussion and being "victorious" when you are out of real arguments: call your opponent a demagogist and say "bye". :)

[oryx_and_crake]

I, of all people, know better than to make literal translations. If the word "grab" has negative connotations for you, you can replace it with "reach" (I believe "reach for the stars" should sound OK for an English native speaker). However the other translation is wrong because it violates the meaning of the idiom we discuss. By definition, no one "has" all the stars from the sky because the stars are hard to reach, again by definition. You are saying that this is equivalent to "звезд с неба не хватать", or, in other words, being mediocre and even somewhat dumb. Therefore, by your logic, ALL people are mediocre and dumb, which is wrong.

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

You must have not notice that I excluded the word "all" from that translation.
I the version "they don't have stars..." (without "all") it's pretty the same as "reach for the stars". If they can reach for the stars, they may have them.

It's strange to hear that "being ordinary" is "being dumb". Do you consider yourself a genius? I hope you don't. Then you're an ordinary person, but do you consider yourself dumb? I'm sure you don't. Do you in this situation think that you grab stars from the heavens? Most people ARE ordinary. And it's the ordinary people who move this world. There are just a few persons who actually have/reach for/grab the stars from heavens. Don't you think so?

http://spravka.gramota.ru/phrases.html?let=%E7&id=66 (Although I don't agree with them about the ironic or depreciating meaning, which is far not always implied).

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

No, it's definitely "хватать" strictly in the meaning "to grab". For this reason, one would conjugate it like any verb (e.g., "я звёзд с неба не хватаю", "ты звёзд с неба не хватаешь"), whereas the impersonal expression "не хватает" ("is lacking") wouldn't change regardless of person or number (e.g., "у меня не хватает терпения", "у них не хватает денег").

[from-somewhere.livejournal.com]

It is always saying "он звёзд с неба не хватает" but not "у него нет всех звезд".

[dark-spectrum.livejournal.com]

Oh, rly? Of ccourse there is not such phrase, but as there is no exact translation, translation can be vary

[oryx_and_crake]

Well, translations "can be vary", but some translations are definitely wrong, and this is one of them.

[crashonthelevee.livejournal.com]

interesting. I've never heard this version, though:

Он глуп как пробка -- куда ни ткнёшь, там и торчит. First off, never heard anybody use the second part (куда ни ткнёшь, там и торчит). Must be something out of a dictionary, not a real life conversation. Secondly, isn't it usually туп (or тупой) как пробка?

[oryx_and_crake]

Me neither. Глуп, как пробка is quite common but not the second part of it.

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

Oops. The access to the story is paid. :(

[oryx_and_crake]

Hm, it was free when I posted that. Looks like they keep the free access for some time and then transfer the story into archive.