(no subject)

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

I've noticed that both спрашивать/спросить and просить/попросить can be used with кого-то or у кого-то.
For instance:

Я спросил у ясеня где моя любимая
Я спросил ясеня где моя любимая

Он просил у матери прийти
Он просил матери прийти

Are these constructions interchangable or is each preferable in certain situations? Is there any difference in meaning?

Comments

[scolar.livejournal.com]

The first sentence is little bit ugly without "у", but still correct. The second one is totally incorrect: "он просил у матери..." requires a noun in genitive case(e.g. "прощенья", "денег", "разрешения"); "он просил..." requires accusative case - so it should be "он просил мать" and then indefinite verb is expected.

[bayukov.livejournal.com]

«The first sentence is little bit ugly without "у", but still correct».

I think that this is because it is obvious that ‘ясень’ is an inanimate and one cannot ask it anything :) The structure with ‘у’ is a bit more poetic so it is possible in this context.

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

Ok, these are the points I was really trying to get at. This makes more sense now. So, to summarize:

--If you want to ask someone TO DO SOMETHING, use просить + accusative + infinitive - я попросил собаку прийти ко мне

--If you want to ask someone FOR SOMETHING (to give you something), use просить + у кого-то + что - я попросил у дочери прошенья

--The verb спросить can be used with у + genitive case, or just with accusative case. These are interchangable. Я спросил у дочери что её любимый фильм. OR Я спросил дочь что её любимый фильм.

Am I right about all that?

[bayukov.livejournal.com]

Well, I think that while I will be writing an answer there are going to be other comments so I’ll just give my considerations. :)

--If you want to ask someone TO DO SOMETHING, use просить + accusative + infinitive - я попросил собаку прийти ко мне

yes, correct (if, of course, you can ASK a dog to do something :) )
Я попросил Петра позвонить мне.
Я прошу вас оставить меня в покое.
Ваня просит Машу выйти за него замуж.


--If you want to ask someone FOR SOMETHING (to give you something), use просить + у кого-то + что - я попросил у дочери прошенья

I think it is correct too.
Я попросил у отца пять рублей
У него просить помощи бесполезно


--The verb спросить can be used with у + genitive case, or just with accusative case. These are interchangable. Я спросил у дочери что её любимый фильм. OR Я спросил дочь что её любимый фильм.

Yes, I think that in the first case the verb ‘спросить’ is used as intransitive and in the second case as transitive one, but the sense is practically the same.
Only in the examples is better to use ‘какой’ instead of ‘что’.
Я спросил у дочери, какой ее любимый фильм.
Я спросил дочь, какой ее любимый фильм.

Coming back to the example with ‘ясень’, if ‘Ясень’, say, is a nickname of a man, ‘я спросил Ясеня…’ is quite OK too. As it was said grammatically the sentence is correct.

[bayukov.livejournal.com]

No, I was wrong. It seems that ‘просить’ is transitive in both cases.
An object is just changed.
Я попросил у дочери пять рублей. ‘Пять рублей’ is an object.
Я попросил дочь дать мне пять рублей. ‘Дочь’ is an object.
Sorry :)

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

Ok, this clears things up. Thanks for the excellent responses.

[oryx_and_crake]

"я спросил ясеня" is wrong precisely because ясень is inanimate. It should be "я спросил ясень".

[scolar.livejournal.com]

Please read item #6 in the chapter from Rosenthal's book: http://www.spelling.spb.ru/rosenthal/alpha/r151.htm

I'm pretty sure that in this poetic context "ясень" becomes animate.

[oryx_and_crake]

No, I don't think any of the cases Rosenthal describes fit here.

[scolar.livejournal.com]

Why? In my opinion, it's a pure case of "олицетворение" (the poem hero expects that "ясень" will listen and talk to him).

[oryx_and_crake]

Just a gut feeling.

[scolar.livejournal.com]

http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/638595.html?thread=9836163#t9836163

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

"Я спросил ясеня" is completely incorrect, not just "a little bit ugly".
That is because without "у" the noun after "я спросил" should be in the correct case to answer "кого? что?".
"Ясеня" is in inappropriate case to answer that question. "Ясеня" answers "кого? чего?".

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

It would only be correct if "ясень" was a proper name, in which case it would start with a capital letter.

[scolar.livejournal.com]

"Я спросил этого старого пня" or "я спросил этот старый пень"? Or do you think we should write "Старого Пня"? Once again, there is such thing in Russian called "олицетворение" (google it), when you use inanimate noun as animate.

In other thread we were arguing with oryx_and_crake if this can be applied here.

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

"Я спросил этого старого пня" is fine, "Я спросил ясеня" is not. "Старый пень" is a widely used wording for some old dumb person. "Ясень" isn't known in a similar way. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with "олицетворение".

[scolar.livejournal.com]

See another sample of "олицетворение" in Russian classical poetry:

Ветер, после трех ночей,
Мчится к матери своей.

Ветра спрашивает мать:
"Где изволил пропадать?"
(http://www.litera.ru/stixiya/authors/majkov/spi-ditya-moe.html)