Verbal Predicates - Singular and Plural - As Expressed in Quantitative Constructions

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Dear Community,

I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at the below constructions,
and provide comments as to accuracy of grammar and appropriateness of style.

Thank you in advance for your kind input.

Kind regards,

ФБ

1.   На столе лежали приготовленные в дорогу три арбуза.

      Три приготовлено в дорогу арбуза лежало на столе. 

2.   Ночью подъехали два грузовика, груженные кирпичом.

      Ночью подъехало два грузовика, гружено кирпичом.  

3.   Оба эти романа появились почти одновременно.

      Появилось оба эти романа почти одновременно.

 

4.   Несколько человек сидели за столом и разговаривали.

      За столом сидело и разговаривало несколько человек.

 

5.   Пять человек выступили против предложения.

      Выступило пять человек против предложения.

 

6.   Несколько пассажиров вышли из вагона.

      Вышло несколько пассажиров из вагона.

 

7.   Ко мне пришли два товарища.

      Пришло два товарища ко мне.

Comments

[squirrel-died.livejournal.com]

1. I think both are not correct. I would say "На столе лежали три приготовленных в дорогу арбуза".
2. The second one is incorrect for sure. The first one is almost alright, but again I would say "...два грузовика, груженных кирпичом".
3. The first one is correct, the second one is incorrect.
4. Both are correct, but the first one is preferred.
5. Both are correct, but in the second sentence I would say "Против предложения выступило пять человек", i.e. without inversion.
6. The same as #5.
7. The second sentence is incorrect, I think. The first one is more acceptable, but I think the best variant would be "Ко мне пришли двое товарищей".

[oryx_and_crake]

I cannot agree with you on some points. In #1 the first version is correct. You may want to look this up in Rosenthal (here: http://www.evartist.narod.ru/text1/64.htm, pp. 183, 184) In #4, I cannot say that any of the versions is preferred.

[squirrel-died.livejournal.com]

#1, 1st sentence. I think it was 100% correct when Tolstoi was alive, but now it seems rather out-of-date to me.
#4. I cannot argue, you're quite right. The 1st variant is only preferred for me.

[mpako-o.livejournal.com]

3. The first one is correct, the second one is incorrect.

the second is yoda-style =)

[mulan2006.livejournal.com]

Were you suppose to change only endings or make up whole sentences?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

The task was to express all sentences using first plural and then singular verbal form.

[sergeys.livejournal.com]

1. На столе лежали приготовленные в дорогу три арбуза. —
Три приготовлено в дорогу арбуза лежало на столе. —
The correct variant would be: Три приготовленных в дорогу арбуза лежало (or лежали, style preference, both are used) на столе.

2. Ночью подъехали два грузовика, груженные кирпичом. —
Ночью подъехало два грузовика, гружено кирпичом. —
The correct way would be: Ночью подъехало (or подъехали, same as above) два грузовика, груженых кирпичом.

3. Оба эти романа появились почти одновременно. —
Появилось оба эти романа почти одновременно. —
First, «появились». And the word order is wrong. In this case I'd put the predicate after the subject, i.e.: Оба эти романа появились почти одновременно.


4. Несколько человек сидели за столом и разговаривали. —
За столом сидело и разговаривало несколько человек. —

5. Пять человек выступили против предложения. —
Выступило пять человек против предложения. —

6. Несколько пассажиров вышли из вагона. —
Вышло несколько пассажиров из вагона. —
It would sound better with changed word order:
Несколько пассажиров вышло из вагона.
However it depends on what exactly you are trying to emplasize. But examples where your variant is more logical are quite rare.

7. Ко мне пришли два товарища. —
Пришло два товарища ко мне. —
The word order: Ко мне пришло два товарища would be more common.
However nobody would say it like that. «Ко мне пришло много товарищей» — yes. But when they are only two, «пришли» is the way to say that.

[oryx_and_crake]

I agree with almost everything except for

ПоявилИсь оба эти романа почти одновременно. - the word order is fine here if you want to stress the word появились. E.g. Появились оба эти романа почти одновременно. Однако по неизвестной причине первый имел мгновенный успех, а второй получил признание только после смерти автора.

Выступило пять человек против предложения.
no, it is not correct, it is wrong (as opposed to the first sentence), and there is no context which would justify this word order. (the endings are fine though).
Вышло несколько пассажиров из вагона. - same problem, wrong word order

[sergeys.livejournal.com]

1 (появились). agree
2 (выступило). Ok, here's an example where the order is correct: Выступило три человека за. Выступило пять человек против.
3. what I said

verdict: in all three cases the order may vary depending on the emphasis :)

[oryx_and_crake]

Выступило три человека за. Выступило пять человек против.
still wrong

[sergeys.livejournal.com]

It is correct :)

Выступило три человека за.
Три человека выступило за.
Человека выступило за — три. (А медуз — и целых пять.)
«За» выступило три человека.

And also:
Выступило «за» три человека.
(— «За» выступило несколько человек, не помню точно) — Три человека «за» выступило.
«За» выступило человека три. (another meaning)
Выступило человека три «за». (same here)
Выступило «за» человека три. (same here)
etc.

All of the above phrases are perfectly correct and all of them can be used.

[oryx_and_crake]

I still don't agree with Выступило три человека за, no matter how many times you repeat it.

[sergeys.livejournal.com]

It's your right to be mistaken :)

[igorborisov.livejournal.com]

I think that form may be correct only in context: Ну, выступило три человека за, и что? Остальные-то против.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Thanks all for your input. In the cases where you are not satisified with the word order, especially those in the singular, can you provide an example of proper word order, using the singular verbal form?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

For example, is it acceptable grammar to say?

1. Приготовлено три в дорогу арбуза лежало на столе.

2. Гружено кирпичом два грузовика подъехало ночью.

[oryx_and_crake]

No. see below

[oryx_and_crake]

P.S. Here the case is governed by the number - exactly as you would say два спелых арбуза, два зеленых грузовика

[sergeys.livejournal.com]

No, wrong endings and wrong order in both cases.

1. Три арбуза, приготовленных в дорогу, лежали (or лежало) на столе.

2. Два грузовика, груженых кирпичом, подъехали (or подъехало) ночью.

[oryx_and_crake]

Три приготовленных в дорогу арбуза лежало на столе.
Ночью подъехало два грузовика, груженных кирпичом.

As to #3, I have a vague feeling that "два романа появилось" does not sound very well, and with "оба" the singular definitely does not work. You can say несколько романов вышло одновременно, but with Оба романа you will be better off with plural. I don't know why. Possibly (but I an theorising and this may not be correct) you use singluar when you regard the things in question as a group, and with оба романа you look at both of them as individuals.. I don't know. Anyway: Одновременно вышло (появилось) два романа на эту тему. (sounds OK)

№4 is fine

Пять человек выступило против предложения.
Несколько пассажиров вышло из вагона.

№7 - Singular does not sound too well with "два" (see my notes for #3), but Ко мне пришло два товарища. I don't think it is wrong but I'd rather use пришли два товарища here.

I think one can safely say that singular works when you regard the objects as a group, not as a bunch of individuals. That's why упало два кирпича or два пассажира вышло sounds OK (you don't know these passengers, they are just anonymous blurs to you) and does not work with пришло два товарища (since they are your friends, they are separate individuals for you and not a group of anonymous interchangeable objects). Hope this helps.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Again, thanks all. To summarise, it cannot be taken for granted that the plural verbal form can be converted to the singular verbal in all cases. Some of the reasons for this have been outlined by you above.

1. However, one can say "Прошло два года", so it does not appear that "два" in itself is incompatible with the singular. Therefore, the explanation that "два друга" should not be reduced to anonymous, faceless quantities seems more credible, and fits with the above notes conderning the faceless "несколько пассажиров".

2. Is there consensus among the pundits that "Оба" does not collocate with the singular?

3. What about #1 and #2, is there any way they could be rephrased to be in the singular form, thus avoiding the genitive plural endings?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

BTW thanks for the link. In looking at the referenced site some things concerning the proper use of singular versus plural verbal forms became clearer. The below excerpt was especially helpful:

§184. Сказуемое при подлежащем – количественно-именном сочетании (счетном обороте)

Пять солдат отправилось в разведку - (группой).
Пять солдат отправились в разведку - (каждый с самостоятельным заданием

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, Rosenthal is always good, his book is like a Bible of Russian grammar and the ultimate argument in any grammar- and syntax-related discussion. So, use it and you will never be wrong!

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Indeed. From the point of view of English or German, one of the interesting peculiarities of Russian is that it is, also, in the literal sense of the term, a "state language". Ultimately, the Russian state controls and decides what is standard Russian. So it seems entirely appropriate to view Rozental as the biblical authority on Russian grammar, based on the fact that his works were commissioned and continue to be sanctioned by the state.

[oryx_and_crake]

Well, in Soviet times all books were commissioned and screened by the state. There were no independent publishers anyway. But you might be somewhat right, as the language studies were considered part of the ideology, likewise all the other humanities (history, etc.).

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

In terms of education in Russian language little has changed since the days of the Soviets. The structure whereby the state defines what is standard Russian remains in place.

[oryx_and_crake]

as to your third question, I am afraid not, because the form of the participle here is directed by the number and the noun, not by the form of the verb.
e.g. Прошло три скучных года.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"Прошло три скучных года". Thanks, that makes sense to me. I can work with that.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

"Оба" refers to an ancient dual, which is now merged into plural, so it is never ever used with singular.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Interesting. In comparison the English word "both" appears similar, in that I can't conceive of any occasion when it may be used with a singular verb. On the other hand, German "beide" can be rendered "beides" and thereupon used with a singular verbal form. So, in remembering "оба" I'll think of English "both" rather than German "beides".

[khathi.livejournal.com]

I believe that it's the very same dreaded remains of a long lost dual number, that still continues to confuse even native speakers even now. ^_^ Dual number was used when there were from two to five things, and it has somewhat different declension and conjugation rules, parts of which are still in the language.