Imperfective vs. Perfective

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Dear Community,

I have a question concerning correct use of imperfective vs. perfective in Russian. Here's the example:

1. Отец всегда много работал и почти никогда не отдыхал. 
2. Отец всегда много работал и почти никогда не отдохнул.

Which one of the above two is correct and why is the other one wrong?

Thank you in advance for your kind input.

ФБ

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

The first one is correct. The second is wrong I suppose because imperfective is used to describe habitual actions (with никогда, всегда).

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

OK. So the key here is "никогда". Thank you.

[la-dy-ashley.livejournal.com]

you can change никогда for ни разу - Он много работал и ни разу не отдохнул (and skip "always"). Perfective form here implies a single action.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Wow!. I'm impressed. Thank you for that insight. :)

[ashalynd.livejournal.com]

The 1st one is correct, the second is not.

You cannot say никогда не отдохнул. You only can say something like так и не отдохнул (never got a rest) because отдохнул is perfective and никогда не отдыхал (never had a rest, never rested) is imperfective. Perfective verbs in the past tense cannot get along with никогда, никак, but I cannot clearly explain why. Probably because никогда is a condition that never ends, therefore you cannot use perfective verb next to it.

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

First one is right. Oтдохнул mean having a rest once, it can be also почти ни разу не отдохнул - not a _single_ time; but никогда requires imperfect.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the information on "никогда". :)

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

2. Антон всегда много работал, но так никогда и не отдохнул. (e.g. because he died (((
this example would be correct.

[oryx_and_crake]

It sounds wrong to me.

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

I am a native speaker and have a pretty good command of Russian, at least. Just take it as my personal opinion, for what it's worth.

How about "Антон много работал, и так и не отдохнул в ту ночь"? Does this example sound more natural to you?

[oryx_and_crake]

I am a native speaker too.

"Антон много работал, и так и не отдохнул в ту ночь" sounds wrong, too. Well, not exactly wrong but very badly organized, as if someone was writing in haste and did not check the written text afterwards.
"В ту ночь Антон много работал и так и не отдохнул." would be more correct, but still leaves much space for improvement.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

I find nothing wrong in that either (never+perfective verb form). It doesn't trigger any wrongness in the way it sounds nor in its meaning.
Surprisingly, this is very similar to the use of never and simple past and present perfect in English. When never's used with simple past the meaning is such that whatever didn't happen, could happen in principle in the situation of the context. Examples: I [always wanted to]/[could always] (do something) but never did.

[oryx_and_crake]

It sounds VERY wrong to me. I would never construct such a phrase nor recommend it as a sample to anyone else. It is probably a matter of individual sensitivity to language. Like a false note in music, some people hear it, some don't.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's one of those little things that aren't strictly governed by the rules or the rules don't reflect all of the actual usage patterns, whether those considered grammatical or not...
Just because it's rather ungrammatical/uneducated/you-name-it to write the way we speak, it doesn't mean we can't speak that way and we often do. For example, we could jump from one idea to another one in the middle of the sentence/phrase and then (possibly) return back and that could be done several times and maybe even several levels deep, but we speak like that in many languages. It's painful to understand that w/o having good language skills, but it's fine, though kind of clumsy or funny at times, for native speakers.

[oryx_and_crake]

jump from one idea to another one in the middle of the sentence/phrase and then (possibly) return back
---
Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi. I mean that something which in case of a native speaker can be explained as a careless or hasty speech, in case of a non-native speaker will look as a bad command of language in question.

[onlyfreedigits.livejournal.com]

oryx_and_crake is right.

1) right (to my opinion, you should throw away "никогда")
2) wrong

use "отдохнул" if you have Perfect.

"Антон много работал, и так и не отдохнул в ту ночь" - sounds bad.
"Антон настолько много работал в ту ночь, что так и не отдохнул."