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[upthera44.livejournal.com]

This is a question I've had lingering in the back of my mind for quite a while now. Can someone explain the use of instrumental case with adjectives in the past tense? If you say Я шокираванный in the present tense, you ought to say Я был шокированным in the past? In conversation I've heard native speakers say "когда я был маленьким" but also "когда я был маленький".

And short-form adjectives do not decline, so я шокирован remains Я был шокирован in the past, no? Also, is it bad form to say Я шокированный instead of я шокирован or is this pretty much interchangable with the short-form adjective?

Comments

[dotykomka.livejournal.com]

As far as I understand it can only be я шокирован / я был шокирован in predicative position.

In is not equal to маленький by the way because it is a participle (or a verbal adjective or whatever it is called in English).

[shimshoni.livejournal.com]

"is it bad form to say Я шокированный instead of я шокирован?" - it is really bad form for a predicate, you can use the short form only (like with others обижен, рассержен, раздражен). however you can do this with simple adjectives (green, beautiful - я красив/ый - я был красив/ым/ый). you can do the same when you make an adjective not a predicate - я такой раздраженный - я был таким/ой раздраженным/ый but for predicate it will be only я раздражен - я был раздражен.
"я шокирован remains Я был шокирован in the past" - yes

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

Normally you do have to use the instrumental with the past tense, using the nominative is colloquial to the point of sloppiness, but in the particular case of «когда я был маленький», it's common enough to be considered an idiom.

You can also use short-form adjectives. «Я был молодым» and «я был молод» are equally correct.

«Я шокированный» sounds unnatural, probably because it's a passive participle rather than an adjective; шокирован is technically a passive verb form here. «Я был шокирован» is correct.

It helps to understand that the long-form adjective endings are in fact very old third-person pronouns (jĭ, ja, je) that became agglutinated; they weren't exactly articles but acted in a similar way, and that's the logic behind them disappearing in short-form adjectives: the adjective is then part of a verb phrase rather than a noun phrase, and so doesn't "point" to anything.

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

Ok, thank you. Your point about the evolution of adjective endings is very interesting.

[brocster.livejournal.com]

Typically (although, as noted by freedomcry above, modern Russian is beginning to move away from this "norm"), the Instrumental case is used after a past tense verb to indicate that the condition being spoken about no longer exists. So in the phrase "When I was young...", you're talking about a period in your life when you were "young(er)" -- and now, of course, you're older -- and the use of the Instrumental маленьким/маленькой emphasizes that point/distinction.

With the phrase "I was shocked", however, you're not trying to emphasize the fact that, at some point in the past, you were shocked and that now you are no longer shocked. Instead, you're emphasizing your state of disbelief at that moment in the past. For that reason, you would not use the Instrumental in such cases.

The same tendency to use the Instrumental to signal a change of condition holds true for nouns as well, so that saying Мой друг был учителем would signify that he is no longer a teacher (whereas the use of the Nominative would indicate that his profession is still that of a teacher).


Hope that helps.

- Andrew : )

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

Thanks a lot, this is an easy way to remember when to use instrumental and when not to.

[chesegundo.livejournal.com]

"Я шокирован" may be Russian closest form of conveying what in other laguages is conveyed by the Perfect Tense (which we don't have in Russian language). The most exact translation will be "I have been shocked". "Я был шокирован" should be translated "I was shocked".