Как раз насчёт политкорректности - Apropos political correctness

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Dear Community,

This is another text I've put together.

I would be grateful for your input regarding grammar, style, vocabulary and anything else you deem appropriate.

Best regards,

ФБ

В немецком есть то же самое явление. Но здесь решение выглядит так:

"Liebe Studenten und Studentinnen" или "Liebe Waehler und Waehlerinnen".

Значит, тому, кто хочет обращаться к обществу приходится кажды раз использовать обе формы, и женский род и мужской род. Одным словом это просто ужасный всеобъемлющий фетиш. Ведь когда-то все понимали множественное число мужского рода как общей формой.

При этом в английском есть такой нюанс: Человелку мужского рода запрещено говорить, "I'm a fireman". Ведь этим он только показавает, что он шовинист! Таким образом скоро будет неприемлемым говорить "I'm a boy".

EDIT: Thank you everyone for your contributions. The updated text has been posted to freiburg234.

Comments

[arnold3.livejournal.com]

В немецком есть то же самое явление. Но здесь решение выглядит так:

"Liebe Studenten und Studentinnen" или "Liebe Waehler und Waehlerinnen".

Значит, тому, кто хочет обращатьсяобратиться к обществу, приходиться каждый раз использовать обе формы: и женский род и мужской род. Одним словом , это просто ужасный всеобъемлющий фетиш. Ведь когда-то все понимали множественное число мужского рода как общейюю формойу.

При этом в английском есть такой нюанс: Человелку мужского рода запрещено говорить: "I'm a fireman". Ведь этим он только показаывает, что он шовинист! Таким образом, скоро будет неприемлемымо говорить: "I'm a boy".

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

приходится - no ь!!!

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[oryx_and_crake]

общУю not общюю

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

Is there a prehistory of your input? Just "то же самое" sounds as if you continued the unfinished one.
Как раз is not appropriate. I don't know the word "apropos', but the dictionary gave the meaning "кстати" (by the way), maybe this was what you meant.
I would not say "к обществу", but "к слушателям", "к аудитории" or something like that. Oбществo (society, Gesellschaft) is something more global than just people you are applying to.
I would say either И женский, и мужской род, or И женский род, и мужской, or Оба рода - и женский и мужской, or something like that.
Как общую форму.
Мужского пола (род is only a grammatical category).
Ведь этим он только показавает, что он шовинист - without только.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

OK. Thanks. Yes, there is a prehistory. Actually, I wanted to reply to a posting by slowowl on the subject of political correctness and corresponding changes in the names of professions in some locations.

Three questions:

1. Why not "как раз". To me Russians use it whenever something happens at a fortunate time. For example, if you walk through the door just when were hoping to see you, we could say, "Как раз, Джон пришёл", couldn't we?

2. Why not "обращаться"? After all, I mean to say "whenever", not just once, but always.

3. Don't you say something in Russian like "в обществе", meaning society in general? In the above text I meant to say "society in general". Shouldn't "обществo" therefore be used in such context?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

PS. I'll go with "аудитория", if it means "audience".

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

By the way, concerning "как раз" and "кстати" this is what I've found:

как раз вовремя - in the nick of time

кстати - in the nick of time

So, why must we use "кстати" here and not "как раз"?

[ex-roumor.livejournal.com]

"как раз" is more like - "just" . it is used to put a stress in a meanings of time or space or logic stress.
"Как раз это я и пытаюсь сказать", "Как раз здесь прошел самый сильный ураган", "Как раз после лекции по вышке мы напились"


"кстати" is used to link sentence with a previous one. And there should be some logical connection:
"Я была на весьма забавной выставке. Кстати, а вы не художник?"
Some people use "кстати" just to start off sentence and one may argue:
(some desperate to find a girfriend guy)
-Кстати мои родители сваливают на дачу. может зайдешь на кофе?
(some girl)
-"Кстати" к чему?

"кстати" also used if something happend to someones beneifit:
"Дождь начался очень кстати, ибо урожаи наши сохли"
"Бандит упал на рельсы и тут, очень кстати, подъехал електропоезд"
or contrary:
"Отец пришел очень не кстати"

there is another "by the way" form: "походу". You can think of it like of pure "by the way". However its not used in a the offitial language.
"Походу Вася опаздывает"
"Этот пост слишком муторный, походу"

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Okay. I got most of what you said. However, I haven't understood what's wrong with "Как раз насчёт политкорректности". Can you please explain the rules on use of "как раз" using that construction as an example?

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

It's pretty hard to think of the rule in your own language:-| Try to read this, maybe this would be helpful...
http://lingvo.yandex.ru/en?text=%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BA+%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7&lang=en&search_type=lingvo&st_translate=1
http://lingvo.yandex.ru/en?text=%D0%BA%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8&lang=en&search_type=lingvo&st_translate=1

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Looked at your example. Excerpt is below. To me it seems that "как раз" fits in the given context like a glove. So, I still don't understand why it's wrong in this construction. Please tell me how you understand "как раз насчёт политкорректности". What does it mean to you? What about it irritates you as a native Russian speaker?

Excerpt Lingvo:

bang on time (Словарь общей лексики)
как раз вовремя, точно в назначенный час
even as (Словарь общей лексики)
как раз
exactly (Словарь общей лексики)
1) в точности; точно; как раз; аккуратно; ровно
fit like a glove (Словарь общей лексики)
if a day (Словарь общей лексики)
in the nick of time (Словарь общей лексики)
in the very nick of time (Словарь общей лексики)
just (Словарь общей лексики)
just the job (Словарь общей лексики)
quite the cheese (Словарь общей лексики)
quite the potato (Словарь общей лексики)
smack-dab (Словарь общей лексики)
that's the cheese (Словарь общей лексики)
just in time (Экономический словарь)
just the opposite (Экономический словарь)
quite the opposite (Экономический словарь)
just (Научно-технический словарь)
now (Научно-технический словарь)

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Well, it might be used for example in such situations.

- Вы говорите не о политкорректности, а о чем-то непонятном.
- Нет, я говорю как раз о политкорректности.

- Мне надо написать реферат на тему политкоррекности (stupid, but just for example).
- Почитай умную книжку, она как раз о политкорректности.

- Ты знаешь что-нибудь насчет политкорректности?
- Как раз о политкорректности я и хотел с тобой поговорить. (also stupid ;) instead of политкорректность there may be any word, of course).

I can't tell the difference between this and the head of the input, but still there it doesn't look appropriate.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I think what you're trying to say is that "как раз" doesn't work well as a leader. It must be introduced by a concrete context. Is that it?

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

Sorry, not very good at English - what does "doesn't work well as a leader" mean?
Кстати! With all this I've totally missed your two other questions.

2. Why not "обращаться"?
When you say "Тому, кто хочет обращаться", you highlight the fact that one wants to apply many times. If one wants to apply once, he (or she, heh) _also_ has to use both forms, BUT the one who applies many times does it many times once - I hope it's clear :) I mean, he applies once, then once more, and so on - so each time the word "обратиться" is applicable to him. The logic is like this.
Examples:

Если хочешь пойти на стадион, купи себе билет.
Если хочешь ходить на стадион, можешь купить себе сезонный абонемент.

3. Well, maybe I just didn't understand, but still I can't guess how one can apply to the "society in general", unless he is Putin :)))

[oryx_and_crake]

Don't expect a rule to exist for each occasion. "Как раз" does not work in your context, period. Why is money singular in English and plural in Russian? Can you give me a rule here? I don't think so. The same goes for "как раз"/"кстати". Apropos is кстати.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I can't give you the Russian rule. But I can give you the English rule why money is singular in English.

[oryx_and_crake]

OK, there are hundres of things that are illogical in the language and you just have to memorise them, whether you want it or not. Why, for example, корабль and микроб are masculine, and шхуна and бактерия feminine? For no reason. Why do двадцать and тридцать have a soft sign in the end and пятьдесят and шестьдесят do not? It is just the way it is.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

We're not talking about a spelling rule here. English is fully of illogical spelling rules. And German is full of illogical rules regarding gender.

The point being discussed has to do with sentence construction.

While the rules that apply to sentence construction may not always be logical, they do exist. Otherwise no one would ever know how to properly construct a sentence.

Evidently, the logic behind "как раз" not being appropriate here is that this construction needs to be embedded in a concrete context. It can not lead. There may be no logic to this rule. But it is a rule.

Or, can you provide examples of when "как раз" leads and estabishes a context?

[oryx_and_crake]

the logic behind "как раз" not being appropriate here is that this construction needs to be embedded in a concrete context
---
If this works as an explanation for you, it is perfectly fine with me.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

....establishes...

[nigada.livejournal.com]

Why do двадцать and тридцать have a soft sign in the end and пятьдесят and шестьдесят do not?
Because пять and шесть already have a soft sign.

[oryx_and_crake]

So what? Is there a law that forbids having more than one soft sign in a word?

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

некстати is written in one word.
concerning походу - i think it's not right to teach people such words :), because as for me, i know this word used as кажется, so one should be very careful with such slang sort of words, for the learners can be bewildered :)

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Yes, bewildered is a nice word. I wouldn't use it myself. But I can empathise.:)

[oryx_and_crake]

I agree about "как раз", it is out of place here. "Кстати насчет политкорректности" works better for a reply to somebody else's comment. For a standalone post e.g. in your LJ it would be "Еще раз о политкорректности".

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

".....works better for a reply to somebody else's comment." - Now, at least that's some kind of explanation.

So, when could one use "как раз" as an introduction?

[oryx_and_crake]

Never. Как раз always refer to something in the previous dialogue/comment/whatever. People gave you a lot of examples above.

[constpd.livejournal.com]

By the way, as far as I know in German they write not »Liebe Studenten und Studentinnen« or »Liebe Waehler und Waehlerinnen« BUT »Liebe Studentinnen und Studenten« and »Liebe Wählerinnen und Wähler« i.e. women come first.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Ladies and Gentlemen - Meine Damen und Herren. This is a fixed phrase.

However, what you pointed out is no grammar rule, but a point of social etiquette. In the present context, it seems to be an example of the topic of this thread -"Как раз насчёт политкорректности - Apropos political correctness".

Thank you for your contribution.

[oryx_and_crake]

фетиш does not work at all in this conext.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So what is "фетиш" to you? I'm beginning to suspect that "abstractions" are not as common in Russian as they are in English.

[oryx_and_crake]

Maybe I am hopelessly dirty-minded but for me фетиш has sexual connotations first and foremost. Идол (an idol) would work better - it is something that people worship and make offerings (human sacrifices even) to it.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Yes, that is one aspect of the word. Another aspect is "extravagent irrational devotion".

The reason I don't like "idol" here is because it lacks the disparagement of "fetish". We speak, for example, of pop-idols in positive tones. But "fetish", as you said, is generally regarded as something "dirty". So, if you abstract it from it's sexual denotation, the word can be used to refer to some type of compulsory behaviour that one strongly disapproves of.

Essentially, as used here "fetish" is just a metaphor. Don't Russians speak in metaphors, too?