Наверное vs. Наверно

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Dear Community,

Could you please help me resolve an issue?

I've often seen native Russian speakers begin a sentence with:

"НавернОЕ......." (an adjective, equivalent to English "probable").

However, to me it seems logical that instead the sentence should be started with "Наверно" (an adverb, equivalent to English "probably").

Here's an example:

1. "НавернОЕ мой журнал для англоговорящих выглядит также как...."

2. "НавернО мой журнал для англоговорящих выглядит также как..."

Which is correct? 1. above? 2. above? Or both? Please provide brief explanation for your choice, if possible.

Thank you in advance for your input.

Best regards,

ФБ

Edit: The riddle has been solved. Thank you to everyone who helped determine the "probable cause" - "вероятная причина" for the lack of clarity.

Comments

[dvanoltri.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that there is no adjective Наверное(наверный, наверная) in Russian, and these two words are complete synonyms, but Наверное is literary.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Interesting. So, there is no Russian adjective named "наверное". And both "навернО" and "навернОЕ" are equally interchangeable ADVERBS.

Does this mean that there is no difference between the two?

Or is "навернОЕ" the preferred literary version?

[upthera44.livejournal.com]

Good question. This is something I've noticed and often wondered about.

[graphyst.livejournal.com]

Yeppp. =)

[salexey.livejournal.com]

"Наверно" is colloquial and is not used in written language.

[oryx_and_crake]

It is not an adjective. It is an adverb. Наверно and наверное are more or less equivalent, however the former is slightly more colloquial. Please note that either of them, like all the other so-called introductory words (вводные слова) require commas before and after them (or after them only if they start the sentence). E.g.

Наверно[е], мой журнал выглядит...
Мой журнал, наверно[е], выглядит...
(Probably my LJ looks like...)
Конечно, мой журнал выглядит...
Мой журнал, конечно, выглядит...
(Certainly my LJ looks like...)
К счастью, мой журнал выглядит...
Мой журнал, к счастью, выглядит...
(Luckily, my LJ looks like...)

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

Наверное is not an adjective. It's an adverb formed by merging a preposition with a substantivised adjective, на+верное – somewhat like the English word "forsooth".

They're identical except наверно is colloquial – apparently adjusted to sound more like a regular adverb.

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

Come to think of it, English has "perhaps" which is not only formed the same way but also means the same.

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

I can think of instances where "perhaps" is best translated as "наверное". For example, "Perhaps their biggest mistake was..." - "наверное, самой большой их ошибкой было..."

It's linked not so much to truth as to the idea of correctness, i.e. arriving at truth. The adjective "верный" has two somewhat independent meanings, "faithful" (when talking about people) and "correct"/"right" (when talking about answers, guesses, ways of doing something, etc.) In the latter sense, it can also be used where English uses "sure": верный знак – a sure sign, верный способ – a sure way (which is not quite the same as "the correct way"). I think it's from this shade of meaning that "наверное" is derived.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"Perhaps their biggest mistake was..." - "наверное, самой большой их ошибкой было..."

Not too sure of that. I were to reverse translate then I would translate "наверное" as "probably".

And if I were to translate "Perhaps", then I'd say "может быть".

Or will you argue that "может быть" and "наверное" have the same meaning to a Russian?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

How would you then translate?:

"Probably, their biggest mistake was....."

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

Вероятно, etc.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So, let's get this right.

1. For "perhaps", you would use "наверное".

2. For "probably", you would use "вероятно".

3. For you, "может быть" and "наверное" have the same meaning?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Naw. That doesn't work for me. Because, evidently, "наверное" and "вероятно" are just different forms of the same thought.

But "perhaps" and "probably" are different thoughts. It doesn't seem to me that your proposed solution captures this nuance.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Or is "наверное" a weakened form of "вероятно" in terms of likelihood?

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

For "perhaps", I'd use "наверное" in some cases, and "может быть" in others. I might also sometimes use "наверное" for "probably". There's no one-to-one correspondence. The thing is, "наверное" is more vague and subjective than either "может быть" or "вероятно". "Наверное" is the word you're most likely to use off the top of your head, without meaning to specify either the degree of likelihood or how informed you are. "Может быть" somewhat implies you are speculating. There's also "возможно", which is less speculation, more observed possibility than "может быть", and it's seldom used in asking questions.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

OK. So according to what you've said, "наверное" is more vague and subjective than either "может быть" or "вероятно".

Therefore, "наверное" is not just another version of "вероятно" in terms of likelihood.

What I don't get is how you can sometimes use "наверное" to mean either "perhaps" or "probably". One or the other, yes. But both? That doesn't seem logical to me.

How can a non-native speaker ever know whether you mean "perhaps" or "probably" when you use ""наверное"?

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

I need to pause and reconsider now. Maybe I use "perhaps" in English more liberally than it ought to be used.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Reminds of the way the Dutch use "maybe" to mean "probably no".

[oryx_and_crake]

The funny thing is that наверно[е] used to mean "sure thing", meaning that the speaker is absolutely sure of what he is saying. However, with time the meaning shifted and now it means "maybe".

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

OK. That's good to know. I hadn't caught this shift in meaning. Until now, I had taken наверно[е] to be closer to "sure thing" than "maybe" in meaning.

So, maybe it is kind of like the way the Dutch use "maybe" to be closer to "no", and the English use it to be closer to "yes".

[oryx_and_crake]

I'd say (but this is only a personal opinion and I am not 100% sure either because it is very difficult to put such vague things into exact words) that if we range the words meaning probability from less probable to most probable, it will go like that:

может быть
возможно
наверно
скорее всего
наверняка
точно/обязательно (as in он точно/обязательно придет)

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Well. Thank you. That's as good a guideline as any other that I've come across recently.

[oryx_and_crake]

You are welcome, just keep in mind that this is something that I just came up with, highly subjective and by no means a real language rule or anything.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Where would you place "вероятно" in that list?

[oryx_and_crake]

after возможно, I think
however, other people might have a different feeling abou this

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Between "возможно" and "наверно"?

[oryx_and_crake]

BTW обязательно is another word that had undergone a similar shift in meaning. It used to be "Он обязательно согласился прийти" - He was so kind that he agreed to come, as in "Он обязательный человек." - he is very diligent, he always keeps his word. Now it is "Он обязательно придет" - he is sure to come.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

- Reminds one of the English word "obliging".

Previously:

- He was so obliging as to agree to come. - He was kind enough to agree to come.

- He is an obliging man. - He is kind, goodhearted.

- He was obliged to come. - He felt dutybound to come.

- "Much obliged" - "Thank you".

Nowadays:

- He is obliged to come. - He has no choice. He must come.

- You are obliged to arrive on time. - You must arrive on time.

"Обязательно" seems similar to "obliged" in that it has shifted from a voluntary act to a compulsory one.

[oryx_and_crake]

Somewhat similar, but I don't think that обязательно has a meaning of a compulsory act. Maybe just a little. It rather means the degree of our confidence that a certain thing happens. In some sense, yes, if he promised to come and we know him as обязательный человек then he is in a sense obliged to come and we can say он обязательно придет (he is sure to come). However we can say это обязательно случится without any reference to someone being obliged to do something.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Yes. I guess in this case English is somewhat more advanced in terms of the subtlety with which it will push you around. What's that they say about the ability of an Englishman to send you to hell and have you be happy to be on your way?

[oryx_and_crake]

Never heard that.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

If I were...

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Let's see:

per + happenSTANCE = perhaps (by chance) - I think happenstance is a substantivised verb. It is merged with the Latin preposition, per (by) and truncated to form "perhaps".

It doesn't seem to me that the formation of "наверное" parallels that of "perhaps". Lexically, I think they also have different meanings. Although, it seems many Russians see them as having the same meaning.

"Наверное" seems to me to be linked to "truth/belief" as in "поистине" (forsooth, of a verity).

"Perhaps" is linked to "chance/odds/luck" as in "случайно" (perchance).

The differences may not be that important to everyone, but since we're at it we might as well aim for the best degree of accuracy we can achieve, I think.

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

Answered the previous version above.

"Вероятная причина"?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm glad to have got rid of that misconception.

Now, for a follow-up question: How would one say "probable cause" in Russian? - "Вероятная причина"?

Re: "Вероятная причина"?

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

Yes, precisely.

Re: "Вероятная причина"?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Okay. Then I've got it. Thanks.

[laew.livejournal.com]

By the way:

мой журнал для англоговорящих выглядит так же, как... (not также).

[oryx_and_crake]

+1

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Is "так же" always written separately?

[oiseau-russe.livejournal.com]

Not always. также means also. Так же, как means "as" "in the same way"

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So, for example?:

"Я также считаю." - I also think so.

"Я считаю так же, как Вы..." - I think as you do...

[oryx_and_crake]

Not exactly.
Я также (better: тоже, to avoid repeating the syllable "так" - it is not forbidden by grammar, just does not sound too nice) так считаю. (This is a correct translation of "I also think so.")
The second one is correct.

Another example.
Я знаю русский язык. Я также знаю английский. (I can speak Russian. I also can speak English.)
Я знаю русский язык так же хорошо, как и английский. (My knowledge of Russian is at the same level as my knowledge of English.)

[oryx_and_crake]

But you can also say Я думаю так же. (I think in the same way.)

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So, "также" - "also", "the same"

"так же..., как" - "as....as"

This cup is as big as that one.
- "Эта чашка так же большая, как та чашка."

У Джона нет времени, и у Тома также.
- John has no time, and the same goes for Tom.

[oryx_and_crake]

More or less, yes. But in the first sentense you should use either такАЯ же большая or так же велика (the second sounds slightly bookish and not often used in everyday speech). The second sentence is correct.

[oryx_and_crake]

Returning to your original question:
Мой журнал выглядит так же, как журнал любого другого человека.
My LJ looks like any other person's LJ.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

OK. Thanks. Yes, I sometimes forget to differentiate between "так же" and "такой же".