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learn_russianHow do I know weather to use ни or не? And does it even matter?
For example, не хочу/ни хочу, не надо/ни надо, не красиво/ни красиво etc.
Thanks.
For example, не хочу/ни хочу, не надо/ни надо, не красиво/ни красиво etc.
Thanks.
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Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"
Date: 2007-02-18 12:45 pm (UTC)PS. I think one key to understanding the use of "не" and "ни" is to grasp that the Russian equivalent of the English concept of "nothing" is "not anything" (where "anything" is in fact "something").
In other words, Russian must "negate everything" in order to have "nothing". It follows, in English, "nothing" is already the negation of all things. (English begins with the assumption of nothingness as a given fact, whereas Russian must first create nothingness by negating everything) It's kind of like the story about the number "zero" that is an oriental invention. The Romans had no number for "zero". Although "zero" is an empty place holder, it does not necessarily signal nothingness. As we know from our decimal system, "zero" stands for something. However, the English "nothing" is absolute in its denial of all things (present).
Therefore, like the Romans, the Russians need a combination of terms to express "zero", i.e. "nothing". This is done by "negating all things".
For example, "I saw no one" or "I saw nothing" is expressed in Russian by saying "Я никого не видел" "Я ничего не видел".
I think Russians might have difficulty expressing this concept to English speakers, because they, Russians, do not immediately grasp the English concept of "zero" as the empty set.
It seems we're both trying to understand and explain to each other using our own assumptions. Obviously, that doesn't work well. I think it's better to first try to understand each other's assumptions and reflect on our own assumptions and then try to communicate these to each other. Otherwise, I think we'll be running around in circles for a long time.
Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"
Date: 2007-02-18 01:56 pm (UTC)"Здесь никто" is not Russian phrase.
When talking on "некто" and "нечто", I forgot to add that nowadays these words imply no negation. They mean "unspecified person/thing". So, the actual negation in the last sentence is formed by "не" in "не может".
I should notice, "Здесь некто" and "Здесь некто не может помочь!" also have no use in Russian. Though, these phrases can be formally accepted as correct.
Particles "не" and "ни" just look alike and sound alike. Nothing more. They have nothing common in meanings.
As soon as one understands that "ни" means NO negation, all his difficulties on the issue go.
In negative phrase "ни" is only used to put a verbal accent at the subject of the negation. And that's it.
There's no hard issue. Still, your intention to find some negation in "ни" brings you to vast concepts about mutual misunderstandings of persons or even nations.
Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"
Date: 2007-02-18 05:21 pm (UTC)And what does it mean that "Здесь некто не может помочь!" and "здесь некто" are "formally correct", but have "no use in Russian"? Can you illustrate your point?
"ни" means NO negation - Your point is unclear. Could you rephrase?
Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"
Date: 2007-02-18 06:46 pm (UTC)"Вы здесь никто" is a Russian phrase, but it contains no negation.
In this phrase "никто" means "someone miserable". Here we have an affirmative statement.
> And what does it mean that "Здесь некто не может помочь!" and "здесь некто" are "formally correct", but have "no use in Russian"? Can you illustrate your point?
These phrases are too unclear to be useful. They don't deliver any message.
"здесь некто" = "Here's someone". So what? Is the someone doing anything? Is anything happening to him? In phrases with an unspecified subject people usually do not omit the predicate.
"Здесь некто не может помочь!" = "Here's someone who would not help". This phrase doesn't have an accent. The message of the speaking person would be unclear to the listening person. Is the phrase intended to say that someone unknown is performing some action? Or is it saying that no help is coming, though someone is trying? Or is it just saying that something is going on here? Unclear.
So nobody would say a phrase like that.
Compare the phrase to "Здесь нИкто не может помочь". Unlike the latter phrase with "некто" this former phrase has very clear exact meaning. "Nobody can help here." The message of the speaking person is understandable.
> "ни" means NO negation - Your point is unclear. Could you rephrase?
I meant that the particle "ни" does not introduce any negation into the phrase where it is used. Negation only can come with "не".
Another try to rephrase:
The particle "ни", when taken alone, does not negate anything. Unless "не" (explicitly or implicitly) appears somewhere else within the same phrase, you have no negation.
When used in negative phrases, "ни" points out the subject of the negation.
Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"
Date: 2007-02-18 08:18 pm (UTC)In this phrase "никто" means "someone miserable". Here we have an affirmative statement.
- Evidently, we're working on differing assumptions as to what constitutes a "negative" vs. an "affirmative" statement. For example, to me, "Вы здесь никто" means "You are nobody (here)", the implication of which is "you are unimportant (to me)", possibly "a miserable person". In any case, I cannot see this as an affirmative statement as it clearly negates something, in this case the worthiness of the person being addressed. If you wish, we could call it a positive negation, inasmuch as it makes an ASSERTION, albeit of unworthiness.
"These phrases are too unclear to be useful. They don't deliver any message." - You are right, if you insist on needing a context in order to capture their full implication. Nevertheless, it appears that they potentially make good sense in Russian, given the proper context. I thought we were discussing the principled differences between "не" and "ни". As such, from my point of view, it suffices that, in principle, these can be intelligible Russian phrases (that simply need to be understood in context).
To say no one would use these is too general an assertion, especially considering I easily garnered these from google references to Russian sites. Also, it seems you expend too much effort to show why they are impractical, rather than why they are wrong in principle. The principle is what I'm trying to grasp here. Practical uses are in this context the next step.
I meant that the particle "ни" does not introduce any negation into the phrase where it is used. Negation only can come with "не".
- Here again, I think there is some difference as to what constitutes a negation. Based on your earlier statement, it seems that to you "NO" - ни - is not a negation. On the other hand, you seem to imply that in order to negate one must say "NOT" - не.
Thus, according to your logic the sentence, "There is no one available" is not a negation, but rather an affirmation, i.e. THERE IS X available (It just so happens that X is an empty set, but nonetheless it IS a set. At the same time, according to your logic, "There is NOT anyone available" is also no negation, as it again affirms the existence of "NOT".
Hence, the evident need for the Russian "double negative" - which the Russian does not see as a "double negative", but rather as a "genuine negative". That is, NO ONE (empty set) is NOT (negation) available.
I think I've understood your logic, and it seems to confirm what I mentioned earlier about differing starting assumptions of English and Russian. As I said earlier, it is this principled difference in approaches that I was trying to grasp.