ни или не

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

How do I know weather to use ни or не? And does it even matter?
For example, не хочу/ни хочу, не надо/ни надо, не красиво/ни красиво etc.

Thanks.

Comments

[asklepij.livejournal.com]

You can take a look at the rules (http://booference.pochta.ru/ortho_xvii.html).

[ozozo.livejournal.com]

for the first time this should be enough:

"не" - as "not"
"ни..., ни..." - as "neither nor"
"ни" - in a case of double negotiation ("ни о чём не пою")

:)

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

I don't tend to translate from english when writing in russian but thanks anyway :)

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

link doesn't seem to work...atleast the sites not loading...

[wire-shock.livejournal.com]

The ordinary negation particle is не.
As far as I know, there are three instances when you should use ни.

1. As part of the double conjunction ни...ни (= Engl. neither...nor).

2. In expressions like ни о чём, ни о ком, ни с чем etc. where the preposition is actually inserted within words нИчто, нИкто (mechanically it could be re-worded as о ничём, о ником - BUT THIS IS ONLY MY WAY OF EXPLANATION, THERE IS NO SUCH AN OPTION IN THE RUSSIAN LANGUAGE).

3. Also as part of expressions like ни один (= никто, no one), where it's easy to check:
ни is used when there's no real negation like не один, а два (not 1 but 2);
ни один is not an actual negation but a set phrase (although it does require the negation particle не before the verb that follows).

Hope my explanation is not too fumbling & confusing :-)

[oryx_and_crake]

An off-topic comment: weather is the conditions outside, rain or snow or whatever. The word you use instead of "if" is "whether".

[oryx_and_crake]

It definitely does matter. Using "ни" instead of "не" or the other way round is a mistake. There are lots of rules and it is really better to get them from a book. However, I can list some basic points.
With the verbs it is always "не" and it is always written separately, except for the cases where не is a part of prefix.
не делал (не is a particle and written separately)
недоделал (here не is not a separate particle but a part of the prefix недо and therefore is a part of the word)
не надо
некрасиво (here it is a prefix)
when you describe a contrast: не красиво, а уродливо
ни... ни... - neither ... nor
что бы я ни делал - no matter what I did, whatever I tried, I did not succeed
чего только не бывает на свете - it takes all kinds to make the world

[innyaka.livejournal.com]

You can't say ни хочу/ни надо. That's a mistake.

[kalatrava.livejournal.com]

Particle "не" is always meaning some negation.
Whereas particle "ни" NEVER means any negation. It just intensifies the thought being worded.

"НЕ" or "НИ"

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

But you also have "некто" and "нечто" - which indicate SOME person or SOME thing. Not quite a negation, but rather some kind of restriction or specification, i.e not ANY person, or ANY thing.

Then, there is "никто" and "ничто" - which indicate not an intensification but rather a negation, i.e. NO one and NO thing.

Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"

[kalatrava.livejournal.com]

"некто" and "нечто" as a matter of fact are linguistic descendants of concepts like "NOT somebody/something specific", i.e. "NOT somebody/something that we can name".

As for "никто" and "ничто" taken as negation, herein we see a widespread fallacy, misunderstanding.
In fact, the actual negation in phrases with "никто" and "ничто" comes up with a particle "не" somewhere within the same phrase.
For example, consider the well known slogan:
Никто не забыт, ничто не забыто!
which means
No one is forgotten, and nothing is forgotten.
Here the actual negation is introduced with the particle "не" before "забыт" and "забыто". While as the prefix "ни" just stresses (intensifies) the absolute comprehension of the slogan's idea.
The same is right for any negation phrase.

Yet, in some cases people use reduced phrases. When answering a question, for example:
- Кто там ходит?
- Никого.
The latter phrase ("Никого.") is, in fact, a colloquial reduction of a phrase "Там никого НЕТ". Again, the actual negation comes with the dropped, yet implied "нет".

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

oh yeah oops typo sorry...I tend to do that sometimes...

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

некто and нечто mean кто-то/someone and что-то/something that we don't know or know little about to identify that person or thing. We can say "некто в черном плаще и шляпе с полями" and somewhat describe that person but there's still a great deal of uncertainty about who that is since there may be other people dressed like that.

Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So what do "Здесь никто", "Здесь некто", "Здесь некто не может памочь!" mean according to your system?

PS. I think one key to understanding the use of "не" and "ни" is to grasp that the Russian equivalent of the English concept of "nothing" is "not anything" (where "anything" is in fact "something").

In other words, Russian must "negate everything" in order to have "nothing". It follows, in English, "nothing" is already the negation of all things. (English begins with the assumption of nothingness as a given fact, whereas Russian must first create nothingness by negating everything) It's kind of like the story about the number "zero" that is an oriental invention. The Romans had no number for "zero". Although "zero" is an empty place holder, it does not necessarily signal nothingness. As we know from our decimal system, "zero" stands for something. However, the English "nothing" is absolute in its denial of all things (present).

Therefore, like the Romans, the Russians need a combination of terms to express "zero", i.e. "nothing". This is done by "negating all things".

For example, "I saw no one" or "I saw nothing" is expressed in Russian by saying "Я никого не видел" "Я ничего не видел".

I think Russians might have difficulty expressing this concept to English speakers, because they, Russians, do not immediately grasp the English concept of "zero" as the empty set.

It seems we're both trying to understand and explain to each other using our own assumptions. Obviously, that doesn't work well. I think it's better to first try to understand each other's assumptions and reflect on our own assumptions and then try to communicate these to each other. Otherwise, I think we'll be running around in circles for a long time.

Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"

[kalatrava.livejournal.com]

> So what do "Здесь никто", "Здесь некто", "Здесь некто не может памочь!" mean according to your system?
"Здесь никто" is not Russian phrase.
When talking on "некто" and "нечто", I forgot to add that nowadays these words imply no negation. They mean "unspecified person/thing". So, the actual negation in the last sentence is formed by "не" in "не может".
I should notice, "Здесь некто" and "Здесь некто не может помочь!" also have no use in Russian. Though, these phrases can be formally accepted as correct.

Particles "не" and "ни" just look alike and sound alike. Nothing more. They have nothing common in meanings.
As soon as one understands that "ни" means NO negation, all his difficulties on the issue go.
In negative phrase "ни" is only used to put a verbal accent at the subject of the negation. And that's it.

There's no hard issue. Still, your intention to find some negation in "ни" brings you to vast concepts about mutual misunderstandings of persons or even nations.

Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"Вы здесь никто" is also not a Russian phrase?

And what does it mean that "Здесь некто не может помочь!" and "здесь некто" are "formally correct", but have "no use in Russian"? Can you illustrate your point?

"ни" means NO negation - Your point is unclear. Could you rephrase?

Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"

[kalatrava.livejournal.com]

> "Вы здесь никто" is also not a Russian phrase?

"Вы здесь никто" is a Russian phrase, but it contains no negation.
In this phrase "никто" means "someone miserable". Here we have an affirmative statement.

> And what does it mean that "Здесь некто не может помочь!" and "здесь некто" are "formally correct", but have "no use in Russian"? Can you illustrate your point?

These phrases are too unclear to be useful. They don't deliver any message.
"здесь некто" = "Here's someone". So what? Is the someone doing anything? Is anything happening to him? In phrases with an unspecified subject people usually do not omit the predicate.
"Здесь некто не может помочь!" = "Here's someone who would not help". This phrase doesn't have an accent. The message of the speaking person would be unclear to the listening person. Is the phrase intended to say that someone unknown is performing some action? Or is it saying that no help is coming, though someone is trying? Or is it just saying that something is going on here? Unclear.
So nobody would say a phrase like that.

Compare the phrase to "Здесь нИкто не может помочь". Unlike the latter phrase with "некто" this former phrase has very clear exact meaning. "Nobody can help here." The message of the speaking person is understandable.

> "ни" means NO negation - Your point is unclear. Could you rephrase?

I meant that the particle "ни" does not introduce any negation into the phrase where it is used. Negation only can come with "не".
Another try to rephrase:
The particle "ни", when taken alone, does not negate anything. Unless "не" (explicitly or implicitly) appears somewhere else within the same phrase, you have no negation.
When used in negative phrases, "ни" points out the subject of the negation.

Re: "НЕ" or "НИ"

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"Вы здесь никто" is a Russian phrase, but it contains no negation.
In this phrase "никто" means "someone miserable". Here we have an affirmative statement.

- Evidently, we're working on differing assumptions as to what constitutes a "negative" vs. an "affirmative" statement. For example, to me, "Вы здесь никто" means "You are nobody (here)", the implication of which is "you are unimportant (to me)", possibly "a miserable person". In any case, I cannot see this as an affirmative statement as it clearly negates something, in this case the worthiness of the person being addressed. If you wish, we could call it a positive negation, inasmuch as it makes an ASSERTION, albeit of unworthiness.

"These phrases are too unclear to be useful. They don't deliver any message." - You are right, if you insist on needing a context in order to capture their full implication. Nevertheless, it appears that they potentially make good sense in Russian, given the proper context. I thought we were discussing the principled differences between "не" and "ни". As such, from my point of view, it suffices that, in principle, these can be intelligible Russian phrases (that simply need to be understood in context).

To say no one would use these is too general an assertion, especially considering I easily garnered these from google references to Russian sites. Also, it seems you expend too much effort to show why they are impractical, rather than why they are wrong in principle. The principle is what I'm trying to grasp here. Practical uses are in this context the next step.

I meant that the particle "ни" does not introduce any negation into the phrase where it is used. Negation only can come with "не".

- Here again, I think there is some difference as to what constitutes a negation. Based on your earlier statement, it seems that to you "NO" - ни - is not a negation. On the other hand, you seem to imply that in order to negate one must say "NOT" - не.

Thus, according to your logic the sentence, "There is no one available" is not a negation, but rather an affirmation, i.e. THERE IS X available (It just so happens that X is an empty set, but nonetheless it IS a set. At the same time, according to your logic, "There is NOT anyone available" is also no negation, as it again affirms the existence of "NOT".

Hence, the evident need for the Russian "double negative" - which the Russian does not see as a "double negative", but rather as a "genuine negative". That is, NO ONE (empty set) is NOT (negation) available.

I think I've understood your logic, and it seems to confirm what I mentioned earlier about differing starting assumptions of English and Russian. As I said earlier, it is this principled difference in approaches that I was trying to grasp.

[wh00z.livejournal.com]

...and also many native speakers make orphographic mistakes with this words

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Yes. That is part of the problem. Surfing the internet to find examples of current use can produce a lot of frustration. There are so many varieties that it's obvious they can't all be right. If so many Russians can't seem to get it right, how is a poor foreigner expected to to get it right? :(

[wh00z.livejournal.com]

It happens, But also U've got here right explanations of rules, so just learn it. its not so hard I think, also get translation thru the context, it may also be usable for U. I speak more than two languages every day and I dont need any dictionary, context is the key ;-)

RULES MUST BE INTERPRETED

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Easier said than done. Theory is one thing, practice another. If a lot of people, native speakers, around you themselves are confused about the proper use of the terms, how can a foreigner ever be sure that his INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES is correct, unless he's had a lot of practice reading, and listening to people who really KNOW the language? It also happens that native speakers authoritatively tell you something is right or wrong that other native speakers will with the same apparent confidence say is rubbish either way. :(