Question

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

I have a question regarding the use of Russian in informal writings; it relates to spelling. I've been reading lots of Russian language LJ's and noticed that some people spell words not as they should be spelt, though this is done on purpose.
For example, фторник instead of вторник, вотка instead of водка, умнайо instead of умное, etc. etc. Also alot of swear words in particular are written like that, but I won't mention them here obviously.
Mostly I think it's the younger peeps that write like that, but it doesn't make sense to me. It's not like it takes less effort to write the words like that, but it almost looks like they're writing the words how they sound.
So, someone who's in the know please explain.
Much appreciated!! :))

Comments

[wildest.livejournal.com]

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Padonki

[asklepij.livejournal.com]

You can also take a look at this (href) one.

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

Haha, man I haven't gone to the link yet, but I'm laughing already - podonki! LOL good one.

[asklepij.livejournal.com]

Here is an article (http://www.nasha.lv/article.php?id=557936&date=23-3-2006) about it.

[alon_68]

But it would take less effort to learn how those words should be spelt :) So, such kind of writing is part of image of a person that doesn't care about such stuff. This style is called падонкаффский, from падонак (properly: подонок - scum), the derogatory name proudly accepted as the self-naming.

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

Wow, thanks guys! Net speak it pretty interesting stuff. Confusing though, especially for someone who's trying to learn the correct spelling of words....

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Why doesn't this someone use good literature instead, having in mind that there is no shortage in good literature in Russian expected...

[nemica.livejournal.com]

Well, I often see 'spoilerz' and 'im ded' (I'm dead) and 'frekin' and 'cuz' in English language part of LJ. I guess it's just for fun and to emphasise meaning of text.

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

Yes, but these english spellings could be typos or atleast shorten the original word and thus make it easier/faster to type. This cannot be said for the russian equivalent, if it is an equivalent...

[ex-roumor.livejournal.com]

well some think that you should write as you pronounce and i cant blame them. I dont understand this stupid gap in russian language.

roots of this new style lies in the Fidonet. was some kinda "Кащенко" community there named after the psyhiatric clinic. then it all developed into padonkovski slang you can see at udaff.com. Several years back then it was totally new and amazin stream. they even had some paper books published.

now some people totally deny this new movent. some totally in it. and some uses bits of it.

the way we teach russian at our schools was always very conservative. Russian literature and language brings up like the best and most hardest on this planet >..< you might noticed some remarks like "if you want to know russian you have to be borned in russia...". Its totally not true and totally stupid. Me mate John is from Columbia speaks russian pretty cool but when he came moscow 3 years ago he had too make animal noises to explain a sales lady what sort of meat he would like to buy. Second - my English teacher when i lived in GB was the same way about English language. And a french girl i knew back then was the same way about french language ^_^.
Third - literature we study at school is a dead one. i mean many ears ago already dead writers like Gogol, Pushkin, Lermontov. so called golden and silver ages.
Forth - "Мат" is offitially and strictly banned. You will never hear "Х" and "П" words on radio or tv or PC games. You will never see american film with exact translation of "F" words aswell.

Might be this lack of life and supression resulted in a new style of writing and spelling.

So i hope this new informal writing will make our formal one less conservative ^_^. And i hope some day we will write words as we pronounce them. 'cause its just totally stupid right now.

[watchbot.livejournal.com]

[quote] Russian literature and language is the best and most hardest on this planet >..< you might noticed some remarks like "if you want to know russian you have to be borned in russia...".[/quote]
agreed.

[quote]i hope some day we will write words as we pronounce them.[/quote]
nevah!

[asklepij.livejournal.com]

"And i hope some day we will write words as we pronounce them"

They already tried (http://www.gramma.ru/KOL/?id=4.1&PHPSESSID=) to put it into practice. Thanks God they didn't manage to do it!

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I like the fact that you present a different opinion to most of the other people that have commented so far.
As to having to be born in Russia to know Russian, I haven't heard than in regard to the language but my parents are always telling me that only a Russian can understand Russians and their literature etc. etc. I disagree, since I was born in Russia and I know people who've never even been there and they have a far superior grasp on things Russian, including literature.
And I do agree that language is a thing that should be developed and refined with every generation. Though that's not to say that old forms should be forgotten in their entirety...

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

>i hope some day we will write words as we pronounce them

...and become Byelorussian :)))

[watchbot.livejournal.com]

m8s, imho English Inet-language has more inproves than russian's падонкаффский.
Mostly English Inet-language makes text shorter. Meanwhile Russian Inet-language invented to show how cool the writer.
Dunno if you know all the 'shorter' ways of English, but afaik there was a big page with such dictionary.
Some examples - 'nub','m8','liek','g2g','sya', 'borked', 'brb', 'btw', 'bbl', 'ya', 'no1','some1', '4you', etc etc.
This is the common language of MMORPGs nowdays.

[ex-roumor.livejournal.com]

aye me use it and love it though my guildies(from England) dont like when someone post forum comments in this sms-style form. as for me the shorter teh post - the betta

[mawunya.livejournal.com]

"падонкаффский" is not the only variant of inet russian. We also have some shorten words (привет -> прив, спокойной ночи -> спок/споке/споки, (not very normative) хрен его знает -> хз). I think anyone can add a lot of shortenings to my examples.
There are also a lot of words, adopted from English, used mainly in MMORPGs where Russian isn't supported. People have to use translit, and sometimes it occures that it's easier to use transformed englisg words. This may be just translited shortenings (E.g. bb(bye-bye) = бб(поки/пока); pls/plz(please) = плс/плз) or modified onece (newbie = нуби/нуб/нуп).
Something like this =) Sorry for a bit messy explanation =)
ps. can u plz explain what does "sya" and "dunno" mean? =)))

Languages Transmute or Become Extinct

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I think this is a phenomenon common to all living, vibrant languages.

And, it seems that just about every generation bemoans the "barbarisms" of the youth in terms of their irreverency towards the "dominant standard."

At the same time, if we look at the English of Shakespeare or Chaucer, we recognise that their "English" is in many ways as foreign to us as German.

Hence, we do well to remember that many of today's domininant standards were themselves once obscure dialects.

Languages evolve and change, or die. There are thousands of dead languages on record. In many if not most cases, a likely cause of their death was unwillingness or inability to transmute.

Evidently, none of today's major languages are subject to such a fate.

All being very vibrant and flexible.

Testimony of which is provided by thead intiator's topic introduction regarding non-standard Russian.

[mawunya.livejournal.com]

Well, you're right, that падонки usually use to write words as they sound. But it's only one aspect. This style also consideres writing the words in a way they are not spelled nor sound. This is just for fun, however it becomes difficult to recognize the word, espesially for foreigners. E.g. "кросавчег", normally "красавчик". The meaning of the word can change too. According to previous example normal "красавчик" means handsome, cute; "кросавчег" can be used as commendation (for a good "криатифф" for example^^ ).
As for me, I use it too ^.^ But i don't speak this style, i just use single words.

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

Yeah I don't neccesarily think it's a bad thing to write like that, coz it does sound cool in some cases. Also I think it can be used to express a certain mood, like for me I associate it with kind of a lazy/laid-back/don't care attitude.

[atranotte.livejournal.com]

They're just idiots, don't pay attention :) Unfortunately we have such a trend today - to spoil our own language. Scum slang is very popular, especially among teens.

[ex-roumor.livejournal.com]

there are too many people who know what is good and what is bad for others.
maybe its our problem ^_^
maybe we should let our language evolve.

[cooleach.livejournal.com]

It`s only a fun way of writing, which is used on the Web =)

[kragoth.livejournal.com]

I've been noticing the same thing, particularly with caps. "РайончеГ" was one thing written by a buddy on LJ. I have no idea what this is.

[vakhitov.livejournal.com]

Райончик - diminutive of район.

[branwen.livejournal.com]

It's like how some people spell "cool" like "kewl", and other various spelling deviations. It's no easier to spell it that way, but they do it anyways for some reason.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Funny, but it's not too long ago that "cool" was just an adjective used to describe a perceived weather condition or the temperature of a particular matter, such as water, for example.

Back then, decribing someone as "cool" was primarily used to mean that the individual displayed an unusual lack of emotion.

The point is that today's conservatives attempting defend the status quo, i.e. "cool" or "wicked", were yesterday's radicals attempting to establish a new order, i.e. "cool" and "wicked".

We need to remember that when we think of "kewl" and other non-standard useage.

[vargtimmen.livejournal.com]

The problem may be that you're reading the journals of Peeps. Peeps may be delicious and marshmallowy but their language comprehension skills leave something to be desired.

[phineus892.livejournal.com]

Haha, are you poking fun at my use of the word peeps? I think you are... tut tut...

now wait a ZEGONT.. sorry, second)) ..no kidding just recombination )

[megabber.livejournal.com]

first of all .. sorry for my terrible english especially grammar .. but after look through this thread I realised that no one even tried to explain the situation with recombination the letters in words on the basis (and regarding to) usual grammar of russian language .. especially with given examples like "фторник instead of вторник, вотка instead of водка... "
russian grammar have very complicated rules concerning writing and pronounsation of consonant sounds and сonsonant letters(http://learning-russian.gramota.ru/book/litnevskaya.html?part1.htm#6) .. such as (my corection of Google translation)
a)Deaf and voiced consonants sounds (Глухие и звонкие согласные звуки)
b)Positional deafening/voiceING (Позиционное оглушение / озвончение(!! this word is new even to me=))
c)Reflecting of deafness/voiceness in spelling(Отражение глухости/звонкости согласных на письме)
c)Hard and soft consonants sounds (Твердые и мягкие согласные звуки)
d)Positional softing of consonants (Позиционное смягчение согласных)
e)Symbolizing hardness and softness сonsonant in spelling(Обозначение твердости и мягкости согласных на письме)
but no one learns these rules. the only part of these rules we can remember is:
few consonant letters have pairs, they are: Б-П, В-Ф, Г-К, Д-Т, Ж-Ш, З-С, .. THAT IS ALL we can remember.
therefore everyone trying to change one letter to another.. and thats how appeared such words as красаФчеГ instead of красаВчиК and so on.
but let me show you my personal informal speaking and letter recombination example. Often I'm saying to my friends "давай уипьем уотки" instead of "выпьем водки" - but in my case these is the influence of studying english pronouncing in words like - ....word, waiter, work, world, walk etc .. that means that even in english i'll spel Wodka (with long W) insead of Vodka (with short V)

That's all. Thank you.
Hope this can help you somehow)

Re: now wait a ZEGONT.. sorry, second)) ..no kidding just recombination )

[mawunya.livejournal.com]

At first I wanted to pay attention to this rules, but u know, they're very specific. It DOES depend on a person, so different variations of normal words can appear, and all of them'll refer to "падонкаффский" style, u see.
ps. Никогда не видела "красафчег", только "кросавчег". =)