What's in an еврей?

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

So I don't really understand what Russians define an еврей as.

With one rather old man, he said "Ты еврей?" and I go "Нет, я католик." "Не, не. Ты что по национальности?"

And with a Russian молодой человек he goes "А ты как относишься к евреям" and I go "В Америке, никто не задал бы такой вопрос" and another friend goes "Нет, нет. Еврей как религия это одно. Но он про евреев..." and then he goes into a discussion about how евреи are those who are rasschyotlivy (?) with their money and so on and so forth.

So.. what's an еврей for Russians really?

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

An ethnicity or "blood", I suppose. Speaking about a person's religion you would probably say иудей.

[oiseau-russe.livejournal.com]

Not necessarily. Еврей means etnicity and religion in the modern language.

[oryx_and_crake]

I don't think so.

[oryx_and_crake]

To give you an example, think about an American citizenship. All American citizens are American, but by ethnic origin some of them are Italian, some Russian etc. So one could speak about "you Russians are all so-and-so" (e.g. vodka-drinking good-for-nothing loafers, maffia members etc.) even if the persons to whom he is speaking are law-obedient American citizens.

[svl.livejournal.com]

Ethnicity for sure. One of the big differences between US and Russia to keep in mind is the fact that we, Russians, are mostly atheists, so we do not care about religion most of the time.

[annyway.livejournal.com]

But we care about ethnicity too much. Most of the time.

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

The emigrants, however … all the Slavic immigrants in our area are bible-thumping Christians.

[k48.livejournal.com]

>we, Russians, are mostly atheists

I wish it was so :(


to the author of the post - рассчётливый means something like thrifty, economical, calculating... may be both positive and negative

[mildox.livejournal.com]

еврей=jew (ethnic nationality)

[coldrainbow.livejournal.com]

Here both meanings of the word "еврей" are discussed: 1 - the nationality (like Russian, Italian), and 2 - the religious position (in the second meaning can be used the word "иудей", but it sounds less "organic"). The point of the topic is to pay an attention to this ambiguity.

[russian-bob.livejournal.com]

Word "еврей" has same root as "hebrew" - it comes from ancient self-identifying name for ethnic jewish tribes. The Hebrew language itself in Hebrew and in Russian is called the same way - "иврит", which in Hebrew means "язык евреев".

In US "jew" is someone who's practicing Judaism, in Russia "еврей" is someone who has one or both jewish parents, or grand-parents (same definition as in nazi Germany :). Majority of the "russian" immigrants in US are ethnic jews (like me), and even almost no one can speak Hebrew and very few are practicing Judaism, we consider ourselves "jews". In every-day conversation, however, we call each other "русские". It's a mess.:)

If somebody is asking you first if you are "еврей", it's means this person is either jewish or antisemitic.
But if you are Catholic, jew will not ask you what is your "real nationality". So...

[gera.livejournal.com]

In every-day conversation, however, we call each other "русские".

This was influenced by the local definition and took quite a bit of getting used to for many people of Soviet origin, icluding Jews, other non-ethnic Russians and ethnic Russians.
Most people still surround it with quote marks when they use it in LJ.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

And yet Russians don't consider Russian Jews to be Russian. How odd.

[mildox.livejournal.com]

In US "jew" is someone who's practicing Judaism
--
Hmm... i thought that you can not practice Judaism if you are not a jew.

[gera.livejournal.com]

In the Jewish religion a Jew is defined as someone who was either born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism.
While converts to Judaism do exist, they constitute a tiny percentage of those identified as Jews today. So, most Jews are Jews by blood. Some of them practice Judaism to a varying degree, some don't. They are still considered Jews by most, including the scrictest ultra-Orthodox believers. An atheist Jew is still a Jew. Also, once a Jew, always a Jew. According to the Orthodox definition, a Jew, who converted to another religion does not cease to be a Jew (albeit a apostate).
So, it can be viewed as both an ethnic and religious characteristic. And probably more the former than the latter.
In Russia, especially in last 100 years it was almost exclusively ethnic, in the US - mostly religious. Many people in US do realize that it is more than just religion: jokes about Jewish last names or appearences are abundant in the entertainment.
And it's pretty clear that both are inherited.
There is also a linguistic nuance here: "еврей" is of the same origin as "Hebrew" which is distictly an ethnic characteristic, while "Jew" corresponds to "иудей". In modern Russian this distinction is largely blurred, but it is strictly adhered to in the canonical Russian bible translation.

[gera.livejournal.com]

Also, note that национальность != nationality.

True story to illustrate the distinction. (http://gera.livejournal.com/425134.html)

[natalya-l.livejournal.com]

In Russia it is normal to ask "Are you Ukranian?" or "Are you Tatar?" - no one from Ukranians or Tatars would get offended. But if you ask "Are you Jew?" it is considered to be an insult and nationalism. The same in case when you say about someone "he is Kasakh" -it is OK, but if you say "he is Jew" people would say you are antisemit, which is just unfair. I don't know why it is like this in Russia. But nowadays it is kind of fashion for Jews to say aloud about their nationality. Like the famouse TV star Vladimir Soloviov several times with no real connection with a topic of conversation have said "me, as a jew myself..." I personally don't mind.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

I was in Russia too long.

When he did ask me that, I was taken aback. I was offended! (I'd never be offended if I were asked that in America!) I was also scared, too, because I definitely knew that kind of question to be something only nationalists ask, so I did. I said "Ты нацист?" and he basically said "Нет. Я просто ненавижу евреев."

[mildox.livejournal.com]

absolutely right)

[gera.livejournal.com]

but if you say "he is Jew" people would say you are antisemit, which is just unfair. I don't know why it is like this in Russia

You must have missed the little Gibson incident, where he asked a cop precisely that: "Are you are Jew?" and is widely considered an anti-Semite becasuse of that.
Of course, he said more than that, which made the context pretty apparent, but we have a similar situation here. Note, that the question was not: "Are you a Jew", but "What's your attitude towards Jews" and the person went on to say the he hates them. So, it very much depends on the context. If one, for example, lights Chanukah candles and a bystander asks: "Are you a Jew?", I doubt anyone would find that question offensive.

Also, questions "Are you Ukranian?", "Are you a Tartar?" may be very well considered offensive if the context suggests that this is used disparagingly.

Finally, a special sensitivity to the word "еврей" which indeed exists in Russia or at least used to exist, has a lot to do with the establishment suppressing it's usage in the Soviet times.
As Zhvanetsky said: "Это слово же невозможно было произнести. Не знаю почему - люди были..." ("One couldn't utter this word. I don't know why - the people existed").
And he was hardly afraid that anyone would considered him, a Jew, an anti-Semite.

[triogen.livejournal.com]

Еврей is a son of еврей and еврейка.

[pashator.livejournal.com]

Nope!

[steissd.livejournal.com]

This means ethnic origin. Nothing more. Literal translation is "a Jew". But in Russian the word "Jew" means a person of any religious affiliation that is of Jewish ethnic origin.
The common prejudices attribute to the Jews very specific treatment of their money, it is believed that they never spend them without having planned their expences, a person possessing such features is called in Russian "rasschyotlivyi".

[17abel.livejournal.com]

В России еврейский вопрос стоит очень остро... Это историческая тема...

Это скорее оскорбление. Еврей(жид) - жадный человек, думающий только о своей выгоде.

[treehel.livejournal.com]

В интернете существует движение Кащенитов, сетевых провокаторов, концетрирующихся на еврейской тематике. Это может быть связано с вашей темой... да, в некоторых случаях "жид" или "еврей" это оскорбление. Например, любой житель Ирака может смело назвать любого американца евреем и будет во многом прав (ибо Буша с его бреднями надо было остановить) :-)