Russian mat vs. English racial slurs

[zombie-laika.livejournal.com]

Whenever the topic of mat comes up, I'm told that it should be avoided at all costs. I've been given two reasons: 1) as a non-native speaker, it's extremely difficult to understand how to use mat; 2) mat is much stronger than its English equivalents. The second reason is harder for me to grasp than the first since I am completely numb to this type of quality in Russian.

The following question is to help me understand the strength of mat in Russian. How would you (native speakers) compare the strength of Russian mat to the strength of the word nigger in English? Note that I'm not asking for a comparison of meaning (obviously mat is sexual and nigger is racial), but instead for a comparison of the magnitude of the words' impacts.

Comments

[todesser.livejournal.com]

Нow would you (native speakers) compare the strength of Russian mat to the strength of the word nigger in English?

There is a word "черножопый", very strong. But it's not mat

[zombie-laika.livejournal.com]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not asking for equivalent meaning. I'm asking about the strength of mat compared to the strength of mat.

[zombie-laika.livejournal.com]

(That should say "the strength of mat compared to the strength of nigger".)

[todesser.livejournal.com]

We use mat to insult somebody. If person reacts - well, we achieved the purpose of using mat.
Second, we can use "козел", for some persons it's far more insulting than "пидорас" or "хуесос"

[alon_68]

Not always :-) Some people simply cannot speak without "mat". In this case, words like бля etc are used simply to fill pauses, without intention to insult somebody.

[todesser.livejournal.com]

It's another question :) Many depends from intonation

[daskalidi.livejournal.com]

The main difference is that "nigger", as far as I understand, is always abusive, while mat sometimes tends to be a mere expression of some powerful emotion.

You must avoid mat mainly because it is usually thought to be a mark of not very high cultural level.

[todesser.livejournal.com]

I heard black men often address each to other as "niggers"

[todesser.livejournal.com]

I've read in "Gone with the wind" - black men often called other black men as "niggers" before the fall of Old South.

[remembering.livejournal.com]

I've also heard a black person calling another black person a nigger with the intention of being insulting; as if saying the person has no class/manners/sense.

[kart.livejournal.com]

This comment is mostly for russians in the community, as it's probably obvious to americans....

Nigger can be carry both negative and positive connotations, even when spoken among african americans. What it can mean depends very much on the greater context of the communication. Non-black americans can in trouble with nigger in the same way that non-native russian speakers can get into trouble with mat.

The meaning depends not only upon what the speaker intends. it is who the speaker is, the tone of the conversation, who the audience is, interpersonal relationships, nonverbal cues, etc...

My advice: say no worse than "блин" in face-to-face communications, but learn mat earnestly along with the rest of the russian language so that you can understand and perhaps use it when absolutely necessary.

[bad-zeppelin.livejournal.com]

Obviously, the strength of mat is heavily related to the context where it is being used. If you consider "nigger" to be the top-rated abuse in English language, then, IMHO, it falls into the top third on the Russian mat scale (yet, I am not the master of the rude). As already noted, one can bring on extreme abuse by using plain dictionary words, no actual mat involved.

[sashka-vyshka.livejournal.com]

I'll never use mat when my parents or simply people of middle-age are near. My husbannd also hates mat when he hears it from a woman. I don't know how strong "nigger" is, but afroamericans use it to call one another. In Russian one cool guy will never call another with any mat - only to insult. If you use mat in sentense "It was very-very-very hard" ("пиздец как тяжело") - it's OK for some people. But it's still very-very strong word and it's better to avoid it

[infinitedomain.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't "cunt" be a better comparison to English?

[zombie-laika.livejournal.com]

I agree that "cunt" is very strong, but I avoided it because of reason (2) above: I've been told that the English equivalents of Russian mat are nowhere near as powerful.

I can't speak for anyone else, but from my experiences, "nigger" seems to uniformly make people nervous and uncomfortable in a way that no other word can.

[infinitedomain.livejournal.com]

I don't see how you could possibly make a determination like that. What quantity would you measure to determine that word A in language X is stronger/more offensive than word B in language Y? Especially since they relate to entirely different things? Then there's always the fact that a culture is not monolithic and often consists of various subgroups with their own norms, etc.

Like so much of anything else in life, it probably all depends on the specific individuals involved and the context.

[zombie-laika.livejournal.com]

I agree that it can't be quantified. I'm trying to rectify the fact that I can't understand how powerful mat is by drawing a loose analogy to a word in a language that I can understand.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

I agree. A word is a word is a word. And many Russian mat words have a direct English equivalent.

What makes words "stronger" is the taboo level the word has in the country. That is, the more the word was repressed (as all profanity was censored during the Soviet Union... to a certain extent), that word will have a stronger effect on the person.

But now that censorship is all done and over with, I'd say give Russia 10-20 more years and all its mat will become everyday inoffensive speech (as opposed to today, where it's somewhat offensive yet still everyday).

[gera.livejournal.com]

Agree.
The only reason mat is perceived to be stronger is that there was a stronger taboo against it in the USSR.
No mat word could be uttered in a movie, appear in a dictionary or a book, unless it was a classic (and even then it would usually be replaced by ...).
After the fall of the USSR things have changed, but using thoses words in public is still considered offensive because people were conditioned to believe so.
It is still totally ok between buddies.

[nadyezhda.livejournal.com]

interestingly enough, in Gone with the Wind when Rhett Butler says, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" at the end it was a HUGE shock to the audience. One of the earliest occurrances of profanity in film IIRC.

[alon_68]

It's rather about tone of voice that about words. The same words can be ten time as insulting as their formal English equivalents. However, in some other circumstances, they can be not insulting at all, simply adding to the conversation some shade of such feeling of "I couldnt care"... There's Russian word похуизм that reflects this state... Actually, it's very hard to explain...

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Not THAT hard. Мне всё похуй pretty much means "I don't give a fuck." Похуизм just means "Idontgiveafuckism."

[yenissey.livejournal.com]

Hmm, to my feeling, the claim "mat is stronger than English equivalents" comes from those with limited knowledge of English. Of course non-native speaker would not feel the strength of abuse words.
I think, only fully bilingual people could compare two languages reliably enough. Concerning your question, not just bilingual, but with American English and American experience in the list, because only Americans can feel the magnitude of "nigger" word properly.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

I second that. What one sees on the American TV or hears in the US is rather limited English cursing. I've been told that to actually get it strong enough, one simply needs to go to Britain or read some very very old texts. Seems like in American English very few things have survived. Probably due to the enormous influx of immigrants from all parts of Europe who spoke natively anything but English and averaged it a lot.

[wire-shock.livejournal.com]

Um... Some people say that Russian мат is very archaic in its function, almost magic. And I have to say, sceptic as I am, this is quite justified.
The trick is, you can't pronounce these words in decent society without it being a bravado/a send-up/just indecent. You can't say "The word хуй is a very bad word, don't use it, kids". It sounds funny and vulgar.

[alamar.livejournal.com]

Well, there's another consideration.
'Nigger' is insulting more because of its meaning and connotations, while russian mat is more insulting, I would say, due to its very sound.

The very sequences of sounds which form these word are considered rude, revolting or sometimes funny. Even if you don't aim them at anyone or anything. That, I guess, happens to english rude words as well, but to much lesser degree.

On other hands, this makes mat a very good way to channel negative (or even positive) emotions like anger, curiosity...

[anarx1st.livejournal.com]

There are only 4 mat words in Russian:
хуй, пизда, ёбля (noun)/ебать (verb), бля (дь).