[identity profile] wolfie-18.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] learn_russian
Hey all, I was wondering about some distinctions between...

Извиняюсь - Ох, извиняюсь, что я опоздал.
Извините - Извините, пожалуйста.
Мне жаль - ...

Well, I don't know when exactly to use them all. Can you use them all if you accidentally bump into someone?

And I always mix this up, but when you're talking about how old you were, do you say Мне было(или были?) 7 лет. And would it change it if were just one year, that is Её ребёнку был только год?
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Date: 2006-05-17 12:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nadyezhda.livejournal.com
the verb takes the dative case, and if you say Извиняюсь, you're excusing someone else! Better to say Извините if you're looking to be forgiven.

And "prostite mne" always feels better for me when I bump into someone.


Date: 2006-05-17 01:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] philena.livejournal.com
But Извеняюсь is reflexive. Doesn't it mean something like "I excuse myself"? I can see that as a form of apology. (That form exists in French: "Je m'excuse.")

Date: 2006-05-17 02:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danvolodar.livejournal.com
Nope. Извиняюсь is used when feeling guilty for yourself. And if you excuse someone, you should use Извинять, for example:
-Извините, что я вас задел.
-Я вас извиняю.
-Sorry for bothering you.
-You're excused.
On the other hand, Простите мне (as well as Извините мне etc) is old-styled, and I've never heard it being used.

Date: 2006-05-17 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danvolodar.livejournal.com
You're perfectly right (except for spelling "Извеняюсь", the word is formed from "вина", "guilt") ;)

Date: 2006-05-17 02:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danvolodar.livejournal.com
"Извиняюсь" and "извините" are both OK, and used when you ask to forgive you.
"Мне жаль, что" means just "I'm sad, that" and can be used it excuses like "Мне жаль, что так вышло. Извини".

When you're talking about past, you use "Мне было семь лет", "Мне был один год".

Date: 2006-05-17 03:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kottu.livejournal.com
1. Извиняюсь - Ох, извиняюсь, что я опоздал.
2. Извините - Извините, пожалуйста.
3. Мне жаль - ...

I boldered the basic part as i guess they're in question and the rest of the phrases are just the emaples of usage.
The first two are the same verb in various forms.

1. Literally, I apologize. It's slightly not good because it brings up a sort of uncompromising fact. Like you apologize without being concerned if a person is willing or ready to forgive you.

2. Literally, Excuse me, Pardon me, Forgive me - depending on the context. Same as I beg your pardon by the eventual meaning. This is the best option because it actually an ask. This shows more respect and obviously, more politeness and true sorry about a deed.

3. Literally, I am sorry, I regret.... Just depends on the context. You still can you it when it's about something you did and sorry about it. I'll give you few more examples and I always believed that comparing helps alot:

Извините, я опоздал - Sorry, I am [was] late.

Извините, я несогласен. - Excuse me, I don't agree.
Извините, можно я...? - Excuse me, may I (let me)...

Извините, пожалуйста. Я не хотел вас обидеть - Forgive me please, I didn't mean to offend you.

*in this last example извините is a bit more formal than простите which is direct equivalent of forgive me.




Date: 2006-05-17 03:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kottu.livejournal.com
the last remark is incorrect. firstly, you gotta show the difference between простите меня и простите мне.

Простите меня - Forgive me.
Простите мне - is transitive construction which requires something that a persons ask another person to be forgiven.

exapmle:
Простите мне эту мою маленькую слабость - Forgive this my little weakness.

and you are incorrct when saying that this for is outdated. It's not as long as someone can use it. It's not outdated, it's just quite gentleman way of speaking. I'd say, high society, noble way of speech. But that's the matter of how much being gentleman is outdated in this time of Britney Spears and Pris Hilton.

Date: 2006-05-17 03:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kottu.livejournal.com
exactly. and that's what's not polite and true regret in this construction. It's a sort of bringing apologies but with hidden pride. Like you already excused yourself for doing bad. And you just state this fact.

Date: 2006-05-17 03:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danvolodar.livejournal.com
Have you heard of Okkams' razor? ;)
Извиняюсь only means that you regret what you have done and ask for excuse - without any sign of selfforgiving or sth.

Date: 2006-05-17 03:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] philena.livejournal.com
Interesting. That's actually always been my reaction to the French version, but I understand it doesn't have that meaning at all in French. If it does in Russian, then that's another reason I like Russian better--so much more intuitive in that regard!

Date: 2006-05-17 03:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danvolodar.livejournal.com
Oh well. Have you ever heard this phrase?
Thinking of contemprorary russian elite as a pack of lucky thieves, I hardly ever believe that they would ever use the lexics and grammar you think to be "gentleman". I can imagine this style used in some sort of intellectual conversation - but they are quite rare nowadays, and I doubt that posts' author will ever participate in one.
This phrase is old-styled, and it's quite weird to deny it - most of the old-styled phrases trend to become smt like "elite" or "intellectual". You can claim сударыня or сударь not to be outdated as well as they can be used in the same circumstances. I'd say, noble way of speech. ;)

Date: 2006-05-17 03:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danvolodar.livejournal.com
I suppose "Извините, что я опоздал" to be better then your variant. Sounds a bit like constatation here.

Date: 2006-05-17 04:22 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Извиняюсь is regarded as illiterate (exactly because it literally mean "I excuse myself", therefore you are not really bringing any apology but rather tell the wronged person that you set yourself completely guilt-free!) You can use it in jocular or informal context, though.

Date: 2006-05-17 04:23 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
This is not true, please see my comment below.

Date: 2006-05-17 04:27 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Извиняюсь means exactly and literally "I excuse myself". Better not to use it for that reason. On the other hand "простите мне" does not sound right either - in a standalone phrase you'd better use "простите меня" or just "простите" or "извините, пожалуйста" (those three will work if you are trying to get to the door in an overcrowded bus, for example). "Простите мне" sounds like a beginning of a longer phrase and requires an object (e.g. "Простите мне мое невежество/нахальство, но не могли бы вы сказать, как называется книга, которую вы читаете?")

Date: 2006-05-17 04:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kottu.livejournal.com
Well, I use it, so?
"outdated" is not the same as "rarely used".
as to сударь or сударыня - don't roll down to a cheap meaning play. these words are not just outdated, they're out of use, because there are no more nobles in Russia. While the construction we argue over is IN USE. It's even not old-styled. If YOU have never heard it it doesn't necessarily mean it is not used. okay?

look up a dictionary for the meaning of old-styled or outdated. where it is said that it's elite or intellectual? what, intellectual way of speaking is automatically outdated? Anyways, i just wonder how some peeps here who got more or less good grasp on English instantly thought they're Russian language teachers. Why did i blew few years studying Russian in university?.. beats me.

Bottomline: get educated. then come back with worthy remarks. you're not helping.

Date: 2006-05-17 04:31 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Here's a quote, for example:

" - Ну, а теперь, вооруженный передовой теорией, я полагаю, вы полетите с
женщиной на борту?
- Полечу. Извиняюсь, товарищ генерал.
- Кстати, усвойте, лейтенант Ночкин, поборник патриархата: говорить
"извиняюсь" невежливо. Это значит: "извиняю себя", "снимаю с себя вину".
Люди воспитанные говорят: "Извините" или "Извините, пожалуйста", а по
уставу: "Виноват". Поняли?
- Понял. Извиняюсь, товарищ генерал. Разрешите идти?
- Что ж делать с вами. Идите."

http://www.lib.ru/PROZA/GREKOWA/testing.txt

Date: 2006-05-17 04:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kottu.livejournal.com
dang, this kid's planning to get me.

---

Извините, что я опоздал = Sorry that i am (have been, was) late.
Извините, я опоздал = Sorry, I am {was} late.

---
better? worse? whatever.

Date: 2006-05-17 04:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danvolodar.livejournal.com
ok, let's fight to find who's right ;)
I'm not a philologist (btw, aren't you?), so everything I can tell is just a native speakers' perception. This phrase just don't seem rude or impolite a bit to me (and I doubt that it does to most people who I talk to).

Date: 2006-05-17 04:35 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
I am a native speaker too, now what?

P.S. By the way, do you also say "я кушаю"? What about "скучаю за тобой"?

Date: 2006-05-17 04:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kottu.livejournal.com
извиняюсь = извиняю+себя.
тебе скоро уже девятнадцать лет. впереди куча времени и возможностей учиться! ))
---

Date: 2006-05-17 04:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kottu.livejournal.com
мне это втер начальник на моей первой работе. у меня была привычка заходить к нему и начинать разговор со слов: "Я извиняюсь, тут такая ситуация..." )))

Date: 2006-05-17 04:40 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Exactly (but I as a moderator have to remind that the working language of this community is English).

Date: 2006-05-17 04:49 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
I am sorry, but a) this community's working language, as I said, is English, and b) please avoid personal remarks. Thank you.

Date: 2006-05-17 04:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danvolodar.livejournal.com
Я мог бы, конечно, указать на пункт второй правил и попросить вас самозабаниться, так как ваши комментарии были не слишком-то вежливы изначально; указать, что даже филологи не могут однозначно утверждать, что верно, а что нет, потому что язык живой, и даже в словарях сплошь и рядом слово "допустимо"; указать, что в правилах сообщества нет указаний, что для того, чтобы в него писать, надо быть филологом с дипломом, учителем русского или старше 22 лет, но поскольку вижу, что это бесполезно и к аргументам, разумным или нет, вы не прислушаетесь, этого не сделаю. Наслаждайтесь собственной правотой.

I could point at the communities' rules point 2 and ask you to self-ban, as your comments are quite abusive from the beginning; I could say, that even philologists can't say what's right or wrong, because the language is dinamic, and even the dictionaries are full of "possible" word; I could even say that there is no points like "you need to be a russian teacher or philologist to comment, and you need to be older than 22 years (talking about that "kid" word)" in the communities' rules, but as I see that no arguments, however logical or not they are, will be heard, I won't say anything. Enjoy your rightness.
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