Soft sign.

[golddustdreams.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why a soft sign sometimes follows a consonant that's before a vowel that makes it soft anyway.

For example, how does пьеса differ from песа? I thought the letter e always makes the preceding consonant soft. Isn't this redundant?

Comments

[maksa.livejournal.com]

"Пьеса" is spelt as "пьйеса" (p'yesa), like "future" (f'yuche).

[maksa.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, "f" in "future" isn't soft in contrast to "п" in "пьеса".

[golddustdreams.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I just took пьеса from an introductory Russian book. It says it means "play." *shrug* I'm nowhere near vocabulary memorization yet.

I'm actually getting ungodly frustrated with the pronunciation thing.... :O(

(sorry, wrong markup in the first version)

[oryx_and_crake]

Пьеса is spelt as пьеса, but it is pronounced something like "пйеса". Please be more careful in future so you don't mislead Russian learners with erroneous comments.

[maksa.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. I'll try to be more careful.

[alon_68]

Пьеса sounds more like пиеса with very brief "и". Without "ь" it's no such sound, only the consonant is soft. And it's true not only for "е". E.g., "лют" (fierce) - like "l'ut", but "льют" (they pour) - like "l'[i]-jut"

[golddustdreams.livejournal.com]

I don't get it. A soft consonant being made.... softer? Lol.

[ilia-yasny.livejournal.com]

No. The soft consonant remains the same. But the between this consonant and the following vowel one more sound appears - just like the sound between "f" and "u" in "future". It's called и-краткое (i-short), and in an ABC it is "й".
So "лют" (fierce) is l' - oo - t (ль - у - т)
"льют" (they pour) is l' - yoo - t (ль - й - у - т)

[golddustdreams.livejournal.com]

So, linguistic correctness aside, in the case of льют, the ь acts less as a phonetic modifier and more as its own independent sound?

[ilia-yasny.livejournal.com]

Well, you can use that rule like crutches, to help yourself remember the pronunciation of these words... But as this rule is absolutely incorrect, the sooner you forget it the better.
Another (more correct) explanation I can suggest:
The vowel Ю (Е, Ё, Я) is read at the beginning of the words and standalone like йу, this is the letter, which denotes two sounds. When it is in the middle or at the end of the word, it softens the precedent consonant, but the 'й' sound is removed. However, when the precedent consonant is followed by 'ь', it is softened, and the 'й' sound remains.

[spazzling21.livejournal.com]

wow. i hadn't been able to figure that one out either, and that's the first explanation i've heard that actually explains it and isn't just "this is how you say this word, and that's how you say that word... hear the difference?" :-) thanks!

ninja йs

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

To explain it more (all the above is correct, but confusing, so I'm really just clarifying):

Think of ь and й as being very much alike. Neither of them has their own sound, but modifies the preceeding letter (this much you obviously know already).

Think of soft vowels (e.g. Я) as being spelled like "йа". You can actually see this in a few words such as Ню-Йорк. The й provides the glide that differentiates, for example, у and ю. Now, it would be silly to always write these letters as йу or йа, so when it's in a word it's spelt ю or я - but the й is still hiding there like a ninja. When the preceding consonant gets softened with ь, the й is not written, but understood to still be there.

So therefore, you have tricky words like пьеса that are the rareish cases in Russian where words do not sound exactly how they're spelt. The native speakers have given you a couple guides to how it sounds different than without the ь. So it seems like something you just have to get used to. I certainly hadn't really considered this spelling rule until now either.

Re: ninja йs

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

>Think of ь and й as being very much alike. Neither of them has their own sound

Come on. Й has its own sound all right. In the words like койка (a pad, a bed,) бой (a battle,) стройный (harmonious, well-proportioned, shapely,) дай! (give [it to me]!) etc. Й does not modify the preceding sound, but represents a distinct, clearly heard sound of its own - namely, the "brief E," "И краткое".

Re: ninja йs

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

I perhaps phrased myself wrong. Stands to show that clarifications can always be clarified ;)

Re: ninja йs

[robomarkov.livejournal.com]

but the й is still hiding there like a ninja.

LOL

Thanks you for this.

Re: ninja йs

[oryx_and_crake]

"Ню-Йорк"

Actually, it is Нью-Йорк. And it is pronounced something like "нйю-йорк".

Re: ninja йs

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

So it's a better example than I was even thinking of, if it has the sneaky ninja й in Нью

[rannor_ru.livejournal.com]

Soft sign affects "е" here - "пьеса" sounds like "p'yesa"
Without soft sign it would sound like "p'esa"

[glorfindeil.livejournal.com]

http://spravka.gramota.ru/pravila.html?mtz.htm

§ 70. Буква ъ пишется только перед е, ю, я в следующих случаях:

1. При сочетании приставки, оканчивающейся на согласную, и корня, например: подъезд, объем, сверхъестественный, волеизъявление, межъярусный.

2. В сложных словах после числительных двух-, трех-, четырех-, например: трехъярусный.

3. В иноязычных словах после иноязычных приставок аб-, ад-, диз-, ин-, интер-, кон-, контр-, об-, суб-, транс- и после начальной частицы пан-, например: адъютант, дизъюнкция, инъекция, интеръекционный, конъюнктура, контръярус, объект, субъект, трансъевропейский, панъевропейский.

§ 71. Буква ь пишется внутри слова не после приставок для отделения в произношении согласной от следующих за нею и, е, ю, я, например: карьер, вьюн, бурьян, подьячий, семья, ружье, ночью, рожью, воробьиный, курьезный, лисье, лисью, лисьи, чья, чье, чью, пью, шью.

Примечание. Буква ь перед о пишется в некоторых иноязычных словах, например: батальон, бульон, гильотина, карманьола, компаньон, миньон, павильон, почтальон, шампиньон.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I would love to remind that the working language of this community is English. It's OK to post or comment in Russian, but you are expected to provide a comprehensive English translation. Many Russian learners here are in a very early stage of their study, so they simply cannot benefit from what you write, however valuable this infromation is.

[constpd.livejournal.com]

Песа would read [п^ьэса].
Пьеса reads [п^ьйэса].
I.e. vowels е, ё, ю, я read like йе, йо, йу, йа after the soft sign.

Вот тебе!

[leidenets.livejournal.com]

Пёс смотрел пьесу, пока пса
не спугнула оса!

Re: Вот тебе!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I would love to remind that the working language of this community is English. It's OK to post or comment in Russian, but you are expected to provide a comprehensive English translation. Many Russian learners here are in a very early stage of their study, so they simply cannot benefit from what you write, however valuable this infromation is.

Re: Вот тебе!

[ghooky.livejournal.com]

что значит "всеобъемлющий перевод"?

did you mean comprehensible? but anyway this looks strange to me:)

sorry

Re: Вот тебе!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

This means a translation that comprehends your initial Russian text ;-)

[oryx_and_crake]

Why don't you ask your Russian professor to pronounce both? Then you will see the difference at once.

[golddustdreams.livejournal.com]

I would, but I'm teaching myself through a series of books and discs. My college doesn't offer Russian. (The bastards!)

[oryx_and_crake]

Good for you!

[dare-ka.livejournal.com]

'ь' has dividing function beside softening one. Maybe it will help if you think of it as a space.

I meen "пьеса" will sound like "п еса" with short space inside.

[golddustdreams.livejournal.com]

Your icon trips me out.......

And thanks.

[michmanm.livejournal.com]

I can record my own pronunciation if you want :)
write e-mail if you want :)
p.s. If I made some mistakes, correct me please...