Dative case...

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Hi. I have a question on the dative case.

In Latin, you could omit a preposition (such as "to" or "for") in the dative case, and it would be implied... e.g. "Sibi dixi" is "I talked [to] him." Is it this way in Russian? Can I say "Я говорил ему, «Нет.»", or does it have to have a preposition in there somewhere?

Similarly... does using the instrumental or prepositional case by itself mean anything in particular?

EDIT: Also... does говорить just mean 'to say,' or can it mean 'to speak?'

Comments

[nah-nah.livejournal.com]

No, you should not use a preposition in this particular case, so thats right:)

[welgar.livejournal.com]

As far as I understand, in every case there you have to use a certain preposition or use none.
E.g., with the verb "говорить" use preposition "по" to specify a means of communication (like "говорить по телефону") or use none to specify the person who is spoken to (like "говорить другу").

[welgar.livejournal.com]

As far as I understand, in every case there you have to use a certain preposition or use none.
E.g., with the verb "говорить" use preposition "по" to specify a means of communication (like "говорить по телефону") or use none to specify the person who is spoken to (like "говорить другу").

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

So, a language is considered a means of communication? Like, po-russki, po-angliyski?

[rebecca-rain.livejournal.com]

Yes, because you're saying I'm speaking (or communicating an idea) VIA (by means of) x language.

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh, I see. It's like when you say, "I'm speaking IN English"?

[rebecca-rain.livejournal.com]

Exactly. You're conveying the thought that you're speaking in a very specific way, and that way is apparently important, or else you wouldn't be mentioning it.

[welgar.livejournal.com]

Not really. "По-" here is not a preposition, it's a part of the adverb "по-русски", "по-английски" etc. So it has nothing to do with the rules for prepositions and cases.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

There is a word for "to say," which is сказать.

Я скажу
Ты скажёшь so on and so forth

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Whoops, sorry. It could also mean "to tell." So when you're asking for information, you'd say "Скажи(те) мне пожалуйста, Вы знаете где красная площадь?" Just one of the many archetypal things a tourist would say...

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

That brings up a question I have-- is Вы/Bac always capitalized?

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Not when you're referring to you in the plural.

"Я не думаю что вы знаете." - I don't think you (guys) know.
"Я не думаю что Вы знаете." - I don't think You know. (formal)

[noser.livejournal.com]

People sometimes do not capitalize Вы even when addressing a single person. I usually do it when I don't want to soundread too formal.

[constpd.livejournal.com]

Actually, in Russian вы can be capitalized if the sentence is addressed to some certain person, in formal style. Вы should not be capitalized if the audience of the sentence is public.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

To a certain person, and in a very formal way, for example - in a business letter on an official document. To capitalize Вы in other cases (like they do it on many illiteral Web sites :)))) is a quite, er, low style :)

[oblomov-jerusal.livejournal.com]

Prepositional case is the only case which is used exclusively with prepositions, hence its name. "Я говорил ему, «Нет.» is OK, (except that unless you describe an event repeated multiple times, you should use perfect aspect сказал) in fact, no preposition is possible here.

[oblomov-jerusal.livejournal.com]

And AFAIK, "sibi dixi" does'nt make sence, for dixi is 1st person and sibi is 3rd person reflexive, it should be "ei dixi" or "huic dixi"

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Ah, is it reflexive? I had a feeling there was something I was forgetting about sibi/se

[gaidheal.livejournal.com]

...It should also be the verb loqui, not dicere. Dicere is to say; loqui is to speak.

[noser.livejournal.com]

> In Latin, you could omit a preposition (such as "to" or "for") in the dative case, and it would be implied... e.g. "Sibi dixi" is "I talked [to] him." Is it this way in Russian?

Not exactly. You HAVE to use no preposition when you want to say certain things. In your example, "Я говорил ему", it is the only right way to say it - no preposition.

[constpd.livejournal.com]

The instrumental case without the preposition means the instument of the action, according to the name. Рисовать карандашом — to draw with the pencil; бить палкой — to hit with the stick.

[constpd.livejournal.com]

Ah, on “говорить”... It can be considered as the imperfect case of сказать. All the verbs: to say, to tell and to speak are translated into Russian with the pair говорить/сказать, depending on the case.

[welgar.livejournal.com]

There is also a verb "разговаривать", which means the same as "говорить". E.g., you can say "Я говорю по телефону" or "Я разговариваю по телефону".

BTW, "говорить" has a perfective form - "поговорить". It usually means to talk to someone. E.g., "Я хочу с тобой поговорить" means "I want to talk to you".