"и" or "ы"?

[costumier.livejournal.com]

greetings.

и = [ee] (but can pass as [i] if unstressed)
ы = [i]

in transliteration and otherwise, how does one know when to use "и" or "ы" in representing an [i] sound? is it just a matter knowing where the stess is in a word?

thanks!

Comments

[cpelkey.livejournal.com]

They actually have two distinct sounds when they are are stressed or unstressed. ALthough when и is unstressed it can sound similar to ы.

ы - is a glottal sound which is pressed kind of from the back of the throat.
и - is very similar to long ee in English.

At least I'm almost sure.

Я не знаю.

[yers.livejournal.com]

If you mean the transliteration of foreign names/places, then "и" is used exclusively for both [i] and [ee]. The only foreign sounds ever transliterated by "ы" are the Polish y (which is the same sound both historically and phonetically), the Turkish ı and the Estonian õ (which sound very similar to the Russian ы).

[costumier.livejournal.com]

ah! now that's helpful!

so "ы" is almost exclusively used in russian words then? (i mean, aside from the transliteration of the languages you listed, of course.) as cpelkey mentioned above, the "ы" more an idiosyncratic russian sound. correct?

or have i miss the point? :-x

[costumier.livejournal.com]

missed*

[yers.livejournal.com]

idiosyncratic, yes. but и is equally likely to occur in Russian words. the two sounds have different historical origins. see this thread (http://www.livejournal.com/community/learn_russian/23795.html?thread=199411).

[costumier.livejournal.com]

this is so fascinating! did "the question" arise because "" is the only soft vowel that doesn't phonetically begin with a [y] sound (i.e., "Я"=ya, "Ю"=yoo, "Е"=ye, "Ё"=yo)?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

yeah, yers is right.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Ы, phonetically, is almost the same as Welsh "dark I". It does not represent an "i" sound. Ы sound is one of the most difficult ones for foreigners. To produce it, your tongue's root must go down as low as possible, leaving as much space in the mouth as possible. It's entirely Russian, and never used for the transcription of foreign words, except, as it was mentioned above, words from Slavic languages (Bystrica=Быстрица), Turkish or Turkish-rooted languages (Azeri kyzy, daughter = кызы), or Ugro-Finnish languages, in which this or similar sound exists.

[costumier.livejournal.com]

cool... none of the books i have on русский язык make the distinction between "ы" and [i]-sounding unstressed "и"...

not having a teacher to converse with makes this sort of situation annoying. >:-L

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Wow. Some books. There is a certainly a clearly sounding distinction when ы is stressed. I could even invent a good example. "The soap was higher than the fish", мыло было выше рыбы, all ы's except the last one are stressed. If you could hear me pronouncing this, you'd clearly hear the difference. Maybe I should try to record an example and post a link to it ;-) Can you play RealAudio files?

[costumier.livejournal.com]

that would be great! but no, i can't play RealAudio files. :'-( can you make an audio file in any other format?

[costumier.livejournal.com]

if you can make an audio file that i can play, could you say "ты/мы/вы" too? i'm having trouble with those basic "-ы" pronouns. this is mainly because i can't hear in my head how they would sound. :-S

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

would mp3 or Windows Media work better for you?

[costumier.livejournal.com]

mp3 would be excellent; but whatever is easier for you.

oh, and how is yers right? you mean he's right about how "the question arose"?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

how is yers right?
-- that ы has more in common with the ancient "long oo" than "i".

[costumier.livejournal.com]

ah, ok. sorry about that.

[annyway.livejournal.com]

Here are two words with "ы" - рассчитывал (http://perlodrom.ournet.md/kino/bsp/m/22.mp3) and
павлины (http://perlodrom.ournet.md/kino/bsp/m/16.mp3). It`s from russian internet page, where you can find stock phrases from russian movies with lots of "ы". :-)

[costumier.livejournal.com]

wow. thanks very much. :-] it's a bit reassuring: i pronouced "павлины" correctly before i listened to it. hooray!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Sorry, the initial link was broken... try this (http://www.hvorostovsky.ru/temp/y.mp3).

[costumier.livejournal.com]

the quality on that file is incredible! and your english is VERY good, by the way.

you've been a BIG help. i have to admit, aside for letter pronunciation, the only spoken russian i've ever heard has been music (тату and Агата Ктисти), Юля in an english t.A.T.u. interview, and the really bad attempts in the film "the hunt for red october".

THANKS very much!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

You're more than welcome. I can't promise that I'm able to record something of that sort any given day, but if you are REALLY in need of an example, just let me know :-)

[costumier.livejournal.com]

excellent! i'll keep you in mind...thanks again. :-]

[costumier.livejournal.com]

OH....but how should i reach you?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Well, just go to wolk_off's LiveJournal and comment to any recent posting there (it's in Russian entirely, but you have my permission to break in :-))
Or, post a question here in learn_russian, I'm sure I'll see it within several hours.

[costumier.livejournal.com]

excellent...

you have my permission to break in :-)

--> ah, the power *evil laugh* ;-)

Recorded sounds

[welgar.livejournal.com]

I can also record some words/phrases/etc. for you if you want. Just let me know via my LJ or here.

Re: Recorded sounds

[costumier.livejournal.com]

oh, cool. i'll keep you in mind...thanks!

[slotos.livejournal.com]

"ы" is represendet by "y" in transliteration.