-ся vs. себя

[blackxlupin.livejournal.com]

Hey everyone,

Is there any way to predict which verbs take -ся (e.g. начинаться) and which verbs take себя (e.g. вести себя) when used reflexively? Is there a difference in meaning there that I'm not seeing?

Thanks for your help!

Comments

[beastcreator.livejournal.com]

and againg i question i've never asked myself.
i don't know how to explain it, but surely you can't say "любиться"
i'd say '-ся' can only be used for things focused precisely on the speaker. although i cannot say when is it necessery to use 'ся'

[huzhepidarasa.livejournal.com]

-ся has several related meanings: reflexive action (мыться), mutual action (обниматься), general objectless action or permanent attribute (кусаться), mental state (радоваться) and others. The meaning is individual for each verb. OTOH себя always has the same meaning and can be used with any transitive verb.

[huzhepidarasa.livejournal.com]

} can't say "любиться"

Why, surely you can. It' in the Dahl's dictionary. A bit archaic but perfectly usable.

[sithoid.livejournal.com]

I think the actions that are very regular and usual take the -ся form. Мыться, бриться, одеваться, учиться and so on - we do it every day. But in other cases the -ся form might form a completely different verb with other meaning, such as убиваться.

[beastcreator.livejournal.com]

seriously?
ok, objection noted, argument withdrawn.
anyway, it would have different meaning from "любить себя".

[huzhepidarasa.livejournal.com]

Yes, it means "to have sex", more or less. One of the usual meanings of -ся is mutuality (to do something to each other) which is what we have here.

[beastcreator.livejournal.com]

i know what it means, i'm a native speaker, goddamnit =)
what i'm saing is "ся" and "себя" with the same word might have different meaning

[oryx_and_crake]

It is not one or the other. Look at вестись and вести себя, бриться and брить себя, for example. The only thing that comes to mind is that when the verb is non-transitive it cannot take an object for sure, so себя is impossible.

[trilbyhat.livejournal.com]

Also: радоваться means 'to rejoice', радовать себя - 'to please oneself'. Not many reflexive verbs mean exactly 'to do something towards oneself". Моя нога чешется, но я чешу ее рукой. Солнце светится, а также светит. Собака кусается, но никогда не кусает себя.

[vovanium.livejournal.com]

In original example себя change the meaning of the whole phrase:
вести smb. is to lead, to guide, but
вести себя is to behave.

[http://users.livejournal.com/kaede_/]

& I want to notice also, that "потеряться" and "потерять себя" have definitely different meanings too;)

[http://users.livejournal.com/kaede_/]

and there's also such word as "вестись"
I'm not sure I can fairly adequately translate it to English, but it is clearly different from both of the above

[surkova.livejournal.com]

it'd be "to buy" as in "I don't buy this story"

to the topic starter:
note, that in colloquial speech it's also possible to change -сь to -ся. it might be regional, but my aunt (60 yo) sometimes says for example "Я оделася" instead of "Я оделась"

[surkova.livejournal.com]

one could think that the action/feeling goes from the inside
- радоваться
- чешется
- светится
all of the above fit :)