Nouns with Numerals

[improperlyhuman]

I can't find an answer to this in my grammar book or on any websites I've tried. I don't know what it's called (Numerate Case?), but it has to do with nouns changing form when referred to by numbers, such as

семнадцать тарелок.

Can anyone point me to a website or something that explains this? Thanks.

Comments

[cassandraclue.livejournal.com]

1-nominative
2,3,4-genitive singular
5 and higher-genitive plural
один диван
два дивана
пять диванов

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

you are correct, I am not, I delete my comment.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

It's called "dual".

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

with one addition: not only 1, but any number that ends at 1, and so on.

[4px.livejournal.com]

it's more complex

один мяч
одиннадцать мячей
двадцать один мяч

[improperlyhuman]

In my lesson, I have

семнадцать тарелок
восемнадцать мячей
девятнадцать цветов
двадцать книг

I have a case chart and these endings aren't anywhere to be found on it.

[improperlyhuman]

...maybe they're all irregular?

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

Case chart is given usually for singular form (тарелка - 1 plate), and here there will be genitive plural (nominative - тарелки - plates, genitive - тарелок).

It's not easy for us speakers to formulate a rule to something that we don't think of ever ^) There is an exception to the rule stated in the above comment, and that is
12, 13, 14.

1 - тарелка
2,3,4, 22,23,24,322,323,324 and so on -- тарелки
5,6,7,8,9,10,11-20,30,40,500,1000,200000 and so on -- тарелок

I think that covers it (I hope I got all the instances...)

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

oh, yes

1,21,31,561 and so on-- тарелка

[cassandraclue.livejournal.com]

female genitive plural is usually "zero" ending, i.e., книг/тарелок. male/neuter is usually -ов/ев.

[bartoli.livejournal.com]

Gen.Pl.

[nic102.livejournal.com]

1, 2, 3, 4 - что? тарелки

5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. 17, 18, 19, 20 - чего? тарелок

Then it starts again 21, 22, 23, 24 - что? тарелки. 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 - чего? тарелок

100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 10000 and so on - чего? тарелок

It's the same for every noun - put it in the form that would answer the corresponding question (что? or чего?)

Sorry, to make it a little more complicated: where the number ends with 1, the noun should be in the singular form (even if it's 1001):
что? 1 тарелка, 21 тарелка, 31 тарелка, 451 тарелка. Except for the number 11: 11 тарелок

[savageanomaly.livejournal.com]

put it in the form that would answer the corresponding question (что? or чего?)

You do realize that answers to those questions are completely not obvious to someone who's not an advanced speaker or a native speaker. Unfortunately, they seem completely arbitrary (the pairing of the question and the required case) until you're comfortable enough with the language to not need to ask these questions. Otherwise, learning the Russian case system would be not as painful as it is.

[nic102.livejournal.com]

Yes, I completely understand. Unfortunately, I can't think of a better/different way of explaining. I don't think there's one.

And they are not completely arbitrary. There are rules. Unfortunately those rules have heaps of exceptions, which just have to be memorised. (((

[savageanomaly.livejournal.com]

Just order beer one at a time. Problem solved.

[nic102.livejournal.com]

P.S. Learning Russian grammar at school was a pain. )))

[master-yourself.livejournal.com]

X + 0 - Р.П., мн. ч
X + 1 - И.П., ед ч.
X + 2-4 - Р.П., ед ч.
X + 5-9 - Р.П., мн. ч
Y + 10-19 - Р.П., мн. ч

Where X = {двадцать, тридцать, ..., сто, двести, ..., тысяча,..., миллион}
Where Y = {сто, двести, ..., тысяча,..., миллион}

[khathi.livejournal.com]

There isn't any special cases there -- just the normal genitive plural. The thing is, it's not only plural -- Russian keep some vestiges of the old Proto-Indo-European dual, which is the reason why some nouns conjugate quite unusually when used with numbers. On the other hands while it's the remains of the dual number, there's no dual per se in modern Russian, so these irregularities mostly count just as exceptions for genitive plural. For the word "тарелка" conjugation goes as follows:

1 piece -- Genitive Singular -- "одна тарелка"
2-4 pieces -- Genitive "Dual" -- "две тарелки"
>4 pieces -- Genitive Plural -- "шестнадцать тарелок".

[master-yourself.livejournal.com]

А двадцать три?

[khathi.livejournal.com]

It all works according to the last digit. So 23 -> 3 -> 2>3>4 => "двадцать три тарелки".

[vovanium.livejournal.com]

According last word in the number.

[ushastyj-zver.livejournal.com]

If you give me your email address, I'll send you this (http://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Outline-Russian-Grammar-Second/dp/007161169X) book in PDF, it covers many aspects of numerals.

[improperlyhuman]

Thanks for the offer; I found a place to download it from.