Conveying specificity
Dec. 13th, 2010 01:06 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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learn_russianHow would a Russian say, "Do you have a dictionary?"
The context of the question is that you have unexpectedly run across a word you need to look up - so you are asking somebody if they have a dictionary, any dictionary. The emphasis is whether they even have one.
Would it be "У тебя есть словарь?"
Now, let's say you have been sharing a dictionary with another student. You have both been using it. You need it again but you can't find it. You ask the person "Do you have the dictionary?"
The context of the question is that there is a clear understanding that there is a dictionary. You even know which dictionary you're talking about. You're simply wondering if they have that dictionary.
Again, would it be "У тебя есть словарь?"
If so, then how do Russians convey the idea of specificity with regards to such questions as we can in English?
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
The context of the question is that you have unexpectedly run across a word you need to look up - so you are asking somebody if they have a dictionary, any dictionary. The emphasis is whether they even have one.
Would it be "У тебя есть словарь?"
Now, let's say you have been sharing a dictionary with another student. You have both been using it. You need it again but you can't find it. You ask the person "Do you have the dictionary?"
The context of the question is that there is a clear understanding that there is a dictionary. You even know which dictionary you're talking about. You're simply wondering if they have that dictionary.
Again, would it be "У тебя есть словарь?"
If so, then how do Russians convey the idea of specificity with regards to such questions as we can in English?
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
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no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 07:14 pm (UTC)Yes
As to specificity, I could ask "У тебя есть словарь, который я тебе дала/в красной обложке/ты недавно купил/etc" - by specifing/describing which exactly dictionary we are talking about.
Hope that helps!
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 07:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 07:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 09:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 07:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 07:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 09:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 07:19 pm (UTC)2) Словарь у тебя? Словарь не знаешь где?
The word order substitutes articles to some extent.
Compare:
The children are in the garden. Дети в саду.
There are some children in the garden. В саду дети.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:08 pm (UTC)"The children are in the garden." - where there is no doubt about it being a garden.
Apparently, as you said, it would be: Дети в саду.
But what about ...
"The children are in a garden." - as opposed to in a playground, or in the yard, or in the street, etc.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 10:33 pm (UTC)If you can paint that situation, we can try to "convey" that difference.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 11:41 pm (UTC)If I were to ask how to say, "The cow jumped over the moon," would you say, "I can't imagine a cow jumping over the moon"?
OK, let's change the sentence.
How would you say, "The man dropped a vase"?
No particular vase is being discussed. It might be the answer to the question, "What did the man do?" It's a general statement.
But, how would you say, "The man dropped the vase"?
Maybe we were talking about an antique vase. There is an understanding WHICH vase is being discussed. It might be the answer to the question, "What happened to the vase?"
Maybe you like dealing with vases more than gardens. :)
Человек уронил вазу.
Could this mean *both* "The man dropped the vase" -and- "The man dropped a vase" ?
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 05:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 09:52 am (UTC)"Человек уронил вазу." without context would mean "a man dropped a vase".
Given some context it can mean all four possible combinations.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 09:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 05:39 am (UTC)But yes, existential quantifiers in Russian often do the job of articles =)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 07:11 pm (UTC)1) "The children are in the garden." - "Дети в этом саду". As the Russian language doesn't have articles, the idea of "a" as well as "the" is conveyed by modifiers. Please translate "the" whatever way you want eg. "Дети там в саду", "Дети в том саду" etc. Russians usually put explanatory subordinate clauses as well as explanatory words instead of "the".
2) "The children are in a garden." - "Дети в саду". Put please any modifier stressing the idea of the "a" article, eg: "Дети в каком-то саду".
You are welcome
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 07:27 pm (UTC)There's another case where Russian exhibits an indefinite/definite distinction, that evolved in the vernacular but is becoming a literary norm: the "genitive of negation" implies non-specificity, while the accusative is used to express the absence of something specific. For example, "Я не нашёл словаря" is "I didn't find/haven't found a dictionary", while "Я не нашёл словарь" is "...the dictionary". The older literary norm required the genitive in both examples.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:40 pm (UTC)Didn't you mean to say "the accusative is used to express the PRESENCE of something specific"?
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 10:02 pm (UTC)Я не нашел словаря - genitive - a dictionary
Я не нашел (тот) словарь - accusative - the dictionary. Тот--that - is implied and may be said out loud, but usually not.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 10:07 pm (UTC)"the (or that) dictionary" is more specific than "a dictionary".
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 01:17 am (UTC)Я не нашел (тот) словарь. 'I didn't fine the dictionary.' (i.e. THE dictionary is not in my possession right now.)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:12 pm (UTC)1. "у тебя есть ТОТ словарь?" - "тот" instead of "the" (or more specific "тот красный словарь" "тот словарь что я тебе дал", your can use "мой", "наш" something that give to understand for bouth what about the question)
2. "у тебя словарь?" or "словарь у тебя?" without "есть" - we need to know if another person have the dictionary by now, but with "есть" it will be a question about any dictionary in this case
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:21 pm (UTC)Basically, is there a difference between saying "У тебя есть словарь?" and "У тебя словарь?"
Does this resolve the ambiguity of specificity regarding "a dictionary" or "the dictionary"?
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:33 pm (UTC)yes
in the question "У тебя есть словарь?" main word (the thing about somebody asking) "есть". somebody need to know if have or haven't another person any dictionary
in the question "У тебя словарь?" main word "у тебя". somebody need to know is the dictionary in second person hands (not in hands literally but I hope you understood)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:45 pm (UTC)If we were standing outside a sports arena and I were to ask you, "У тебя есть билет?" - You would take that to mean, "Do you have a ticket?" - After all, you can't get in without a ticket. Do you have one? Did you even buy one?
On the other hand, if I were to ask, "У тебя билет?", that would be more like asking "Do you have your ticket on you?" It's understood that you have a ticket - I'm just wondering if you remembered to bring it. Is it ON you? Is it your pocket? Are you holding it? You didn't leave it in the car, did you?
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 05:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 05:16 am (UTC)You should care about stress. There are differences in meanings.
"У тебя есть билет?" - neutral, you just wonder if he\she has a ticket.
"У тебя БИЛЕТ?" - Gosh, you have a ticket on the show of Jamiroquai, what a surprise!
"Билет у тебя?" (2 stresses, both on "билет" и "тебя", a bit more on "тебя") - you're asking if he\she have that ticket you've talked about recently. Neutral.
"БИЛЕТ у тебя?" - Gosh, you are so stupid, I'm asking the third time and you cannot give the answer to the very simple question - if you have a ticked you've talked recently.
BTW, "У тебя билет?" with neutral tone sounds awkward. It doesn't sound Russian. As you may see, most of people advise you to say "Билет у тебя?" - it's correct, and at the same time a bit informal.
+1
Date: 2010-12-16 11:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 08:43 pm (UTC)and "У тебя словарь?" = Did you take the dictionary?= Are you the person who took the dictionary?
There is no the category of definiteness/ undefiniteness in Russian language. When necessary, languages of this kind (Slavic languahes) may indicate definiteness by other means such as Demonstratives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definiteness).
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 09:24 pm (UTC)"Не найдётся ли у тебя словарь/словаря?" (more formal)
"У тебя словарь/словаря не найдётся?" (colloquial)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 04:06 am (UTC)"У тебя словари есть?" - будет понятно, что подойдет любой словарь или несколько.
или
"У тебя какой-нибудь словарь есть?"
"Do you have the dictionary?" - тут конретика:
"Словарь у тебя?"
"Тот словарь у тебя?"
"Этот словарь у тебя?"
"У тебя словарь?" - более правильный перевод, как мне кажется, для фразы "Do you have the dictionary?"
PS
А русскоязычным так до конца и непонятно зачем the и a(n), когда можно вполне обойтись без них :)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 04:14 am (UTC)Я дома. Пришел друг. Спросил:
- У тебя есть словарь?
- Какой?
- Англо-русский.
- Да, есть.
Я на уроке в школе. Урок английского языка. Друг спрашивает:
- У тебя есть словарь?
- Да, есть.
Одинаковые вопросы, в различных ситуациях, могут быть поняты по-разному.
PS
Use google translate if you need.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 08:49 am (UTC)- У тебя есть словарь?
- Да, есть.
Do you really mean, it would be "the" in English???
no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 08:57 am (UTC)Логика английского языка в применении a(n) и the далеко не всегда очевидна. Вот как в данном случае. По-русски совершенно очевидно, что в ситуации на уроке вопрос будет о конкретном словаре (the), а не о любом вообще.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 09:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 09:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 09:22 am (UTC)°-)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 07:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 01:33 pm (UTC)°-)