Is it offensive?

[joshthewriter.livejournal.com]

Здрасте всо!  I have been a long time lurker in this community and I wanted to pose a question to the group.  In my job and around my town I run into lots of people from countries like Ukraine, Belarus, and other former Soviet countries.  A long time ago I tried to speak in Russian to a woman from the Ukraine, and she became very offended because I had assumed she spoke Russian, which she did, but somehow this made her very angry.

Ever since then even though I'm conversationally adequate in Russian, and sometimes at my job it would be a lot easier if I spoke russian to my customers who don't speak english very well, I hesitate and usually just stick to english because I don't want to offend anyone like that again, especially if they're not actually from Russia.  Have any of you experienced this and do you think it's okay for me to try and speak to people in russian even though it might not be their home country's primary language?  I helped a gentleman from Belarus today with his computer and it was very difficult to communicate with him in english but I was so terrified of making him angry that I didn't even try russian, and now I feel bad because maybe I could have helped him better =/

Comments

[trinker.livejournal.com]

I cannot speak for involuntary russophones, but I would think that in this case, as with anyone coping with some sort of temporary struggle or permanent disability, that one asks if one can render aid. "Would this be easier for you if I try Russian", rather than leaping to change the conversation to Russian.

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

russophobes?

[trinker.livejournal.com]

russophones. people who speak russian.

[vsjo-taki.livejournal.com]

Please, don't allow one Ukraniane to terrify you so much. :-)

On the one hand, The problem of "Russian as offensive language" exists.
On the other hand, it is not general. There are many many exceptions.
Just try speak Russian again.

[ksenia2005.livejournal.com]

I would say, that the case with offended woman was the exception. And in general the majority of Ukrainians would not be offended.

[svl.livejournal.com]

Okay it`s simple and complicated, too:)
Western Ukrainians are typically ultranationalists hence the offended woman, Easterners typically speak Russian as it is their mother tongue.
Most Byelorussians speak Russian as well tho ultranationalists exist there as well, however chances of running into one from Belarus are rather small.
And, btw, why should you care about their ultranationalist views? You tried to help and they wanted you to speak a specific language while helping? Tell em to bug off:)

[4px.livejournal.com]

yep +1!

[khathi.livejournal.com]

It's hard to zmagars to get a passport. ;)

[svl.livejournal.com]

Not now, they don't need to get that stamp (this passport is valid for international travel or smth like that) since 2009, I believe.

[nowhere-person.livejournal.com]

Western Ukrainians are typically ultranationalists

I'm sorry, but you just said utter bullshit. Of course, if you don't regard as 'ultranationalist' any Ukrainian who likes Ukraine less then Russia.

[svl.livejournal.com]

BS sure sounds like a proof:))))))

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

Liking Ukraine and hating Russia are two different and, what's much more important, unrelated things, you know? :)

[nowhere-person.livejournal.com]

I know, and so what?

[skogens-kjole.livejournal.com]

Let the holy war begin :)

[vovanium.livejournal.com]

All that answered is right. But people may be inadequate for no reason.

I haven't meet any people negative to Russian while been in Ukraine not long ago, so I think you're just "lucky". Previously i've seen only one woman refusing to speak with Russian.

So IMHO you may try speak Russian in ex-USSR very freely, nationalistic incidents are rare.

[surkova.livejournal.com]

For all I know, in Belarus and Kazakhstan Russian is the second official language, so at this level I'd say you can freely use it with citizens of these countries. In Ukraine, Russian is spoken quite widely, especially in the Eastern part, so if you assume that a person is from Ukraine, you may try switching to Russian, and if you see that the person feels uncomfortable, just ask them. Or ask in the first place.
In Baltic countries (Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania), which are also ex-USSR, Russian is widespread, but many young people who were born after the fall of the Soviet Union, just either do not speak Russian or do not want to speak Russian and they'd prefer sticking to English, I think.

[arnold3.livejournal.com]

I think that trying to speak in Russian to that woman you showed to her that her English is bad and this made her angry.

[loxian.livejournal.com]

I agree.

[belacane.livejournal.com]

+1

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

I am not sure it's a question for this community ^) Psychologists/historians might be better qualified.

Anyway, two versions:

1. Some non-Russians from ex-Soviet republics consider Russians occupants/evil. For years, Ukrainian was suppressed in the USSR, for example.

2. That particular woman might have thought you slighting her English.

I'd say do make available the information that you can speak Russian and let the other person make their choice of languages.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

M-m-m-m.. I don't feel that having two (and half:) -- Khruschev wasn't Ukrainian, although he was born there and affected it) General Secretaries out of seen counts as "suppressing". ;)

Ah, sorry, you mean language. Well, that's another and much complex story. One can argue that Ukrainian was suppressed as in "Not an official language of the Union", but then there's a practical side to it. There were fifteen republics in the Union, and if Ukrainian was given an official status, everyone else would want the same. In Canada there are two official languages, and it's already something of a burden. In Switzerland there are four and it's a problem. Fifteen would be an outright nightmare. It's the same as in India, where there are also people who claim that Kannada or Telugu are suppressed because everyone speaks Hindi or English. ;)

In fact, the greatest development of Ukrainian as the language came exactly in the Soviet times, when it was supposedly suppressed. There were numbers of institutes developing terminology and codifying grammar, the language was heavily promoted (within Ukraine<\i> -- there were complains that in the russophone areas, where no one speak Ukrainian anyway, there were mandatory Ukrainian lessons in schools), and there were MORE foreign books translated in Ukrainian than it were in Russian. Of course, this was in Brezhnev times, during Stalin's rule there was indeed some pretty strong Russification drive, but still.

But I digress -- I believe that your second option is true. If the woman was perfectly able to speak English, it indeed looks like a pretty heavy slight to her language skills.

[nowhere-person.livejournal.com]

Khruschev wasn't Ukrainian, although he was born there

Khruschev was born in Russia.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Ah, yep, he's from Kursk oblast'. Still, that's a "Surzhik belt", and the man loved to play Ukrainian.

[jolies-fanclub.livejournal.com]

It can be humiliating!

Firstly, when you're talking to a young person, especially a lady, who is an immigrant, persuaded that she looks just like you (Americans, English, whoever...) you might disappoint her letting her know that her Russian/Ukrainian part is bold. She might recognize, that she's been faking her true origin most of the time, faking hard, until you destroyed all the mimicry. You can't imagine how painful it can be for her to get back to the grounds, that she's not American, as she desired, but still one of us - Russians - in your eyes, associated with evil everywhere in the civilized world.

Secondly, you let her know that she was stupid enough, unable to understand/not worthy to be spoken to in your native language, though she might be interested in speaking/exercising English.

Thirdly, you put yourself above her, letting her know, that you speak better her native language living in your home country, than she speaks your native language living in your home country, although she'd be supposed to do better than you.

This is a psychological crap to deal with. A tentative strategy could be asking her if she'd allow you to speak Russian with her, because (and here comes a legend :) "you're interested in practicing Russian", and perhaps it'd be fun if she could correct some of your mistakes too. But before that, tell her, what a pretty accent she has, that you heard that accent once your were in Boston, that she was probably born in Boston... After that you can do with her anything you want.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Yep, I agree. That's a touchy subject for many, and I always wonder at my compatriots apologizing profusely for their "poor" English, while it is, in fact, lightyears ahead of many native speakers. And the funniest part is that the better the language, the stronger is the apologizing.

[oiseau-russe.livejournal.com]

It's juste that we (and I say we as I apologize quite often for my English) see our own mistakes and find it disrespecting to speak not as good as we should...

[jolies-fanclub.livejournal.com]

"Secondly and thirdly" a modal verb should've been used. Not that you offended her was meant.

[kolldun.livejournal.com]

If u don't sell yahts or stuff like that u don't have to be such a psychotherapist for customers, I guess)

[joshthewriter.livejournal.com]

I appreciate everyone's input and you have all made some very useful suggestions. I should add to the story with the Ukrainian woman that she spoke perfect english with no accent, I just happened to know she was from Ukraine because she told us, at which point I exclaimed (in terrible Russian) that I spoke a little Russian. She seemed mostly upset that I assumed she spoke Russian as well, so I sense it was mostly animosity about the way Ukraine was treated by Russia, but I have no idea how many people feel this way, etc, so I've just felt it safer to not mention it at all. In the future however, I will ask if it's okay.

Больщое спацибо всем =)

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Well, in that case I'd say that another the reason she became upset was not due to any Russian-Ukrainian relations, but due to the fact that she probably prided herself because of her good English and was disappointed at your chiming in. ;) Most Eastern Europeans, especially Russians and Ukrainians, have something of an inferiority complex about their command of foreign languages (mostly unfounded), and tend to be touchy about the subject. She might feel that you're dismissing her language skills

[miconazole.livejournal.com]

I think maybe it's the fact you exclaimed you knew Russian when she told you she was from Ukraine, it's something I get a lot in daily life. People I just met simply need to know for some reason where I'm from, no not there, where I'm REALLY from, then when I tell them (China) they nod sagely and go "Ah yes, I've been to Singapore/Malaysia/Japan" at which point I can't help but think what the fuck is your point, it's not even the same fucking country. Anyway given how every westerner seems to think Ukraine is part of Russia (I'm not saying YOU do, but it does seem to be the prevailing opinion) she probably only hears "Oh yes I've been to Russian/speak Russian/have Russian friends" when people find out she's Ukrainian. I can only imagine it gets a little old.

[k0dama.livejournal.com]

I am always annoyed/offended when people try to speak Japanese or Chinese to me just because I look like I may be from there. -_-

[surkova.livejournal.com]

Reply to such people that you're from Far North of Russia and you don't give a crap their assumptions ;)

[k0dama.livejournal.com]

OTL. I just tell them I'm American.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

LOL. When I lived in Japan, on my friend told me a similar story. He's a Kazakh, and looked like a local, but he didn't speak a word in Japanese, so he always relied on his wife, who is Russian. But, contrary to your situation, it amused him to no end when the locals mistook him for Japanese and addressed him as a head of the family, while he nodded gravely and passed them to his wife to do their business.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

I'd say this woman is an exception. Most everyone in Ukraine, except for some VERY rural types from the West (but then, it's equally unlikely that you ever encounter them), speak Russian pretty fine, thank you. It's just that some of them (a distinct minority, BTW) elect to take offense at it for purely political reasons, mostly due to being Ukrainian Nationalists or such. I don't feel that you need to accomodate to political beliefs of your clients in your work. If they feel offended they can look elsewhere.