verbs - perfective vs. imperfective
Aug. 17th, 2010 12:17 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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learn_russianI ran across this sentence and translation in recent studies:
Кто читал эту книгу -- поднимите руку!
"Those who have read this book - please raise your hand!"
It seems to me that since a completed action is implied that прочитал would be more appropriate.
I would translate the sentence, "Those who were reading this book - please raise your hand!"
I am continually surprised how often Russians use the imperfective verb form when a completed action is clearly implied.
And, I am still totally befuddled as to which verb to use (imperfective vs. perfective) when making an imperative. Generally, I use the imperfective with a negative infinitive.
For instance, how would you say?
"Wait for me!"
"Don't wait for me!"
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
Кто читал эту книгу -- поднимите руку!
"Those who have read this book - please raise your hand!"
It seems to me that since a completed action is implied that прочитал would be more appropriate.
I would translate the sentence, "Those who were reading this book - please raise your hand!"
I am continually surprised how often Russians use the imperfective verb form when a completed action is clearly implied.
And, I am still totally befuddled as to which verb to use (imperfective vs. perfective) when making an imperative. Generally, I use the imperfective with a negative infinitive.
For instance, how would you say?
"Wait for me!"
"Don't wait for me!"
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 05:21 am (UTC)I think using imperfective with a negative infinitive is correct.
I would say:
- Подожди меня!
- Не надо меня ждать!
However, a very well known poem goes:
"Жди меня, и я вернусь...".
I don't know how to explain the difference. Probably, in the second case it is implied that the poem's addressee should wait for a very long, possibly indefinite, period of time.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 05:33 am (UTC)"In this case читал just implied that you have finished reading."
I still do not understand why one would use an imperfective verb that "implies" a completed task when there is a specific word that specifically suggests completion ... прочитал in this case.
Would the use of прочитал in this sentence sound strange?
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 05:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 05:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 11:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 12:38 pm (UTC)°-)
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 07:17 am (UTC)Mind also that it's pretty hard to imagine 'читать' in this sense other than in its Past tense-form.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 07:23 am (UTC)---
In most contexts, I guess, yes. It is customary to ask "вы читали...?" in this case. A teacher may ask "вы прочитали...?" if she is interested in whether the students actually completed reading their home assignment.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 07:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 12:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 07:35 am (UTC)"Не подожди" is certainly awkward, but
"Смотри, шею не сломай, шумахер"!
"Не заляпай рубашку — хрен же отстираешь ее потом"!
"Не свались в канаву, а то кто потом тебя вытаскивать будет? Я"?
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 05:45 am (UTC)Formally you have right, the speaker asks about кто прочел эту книгу.
But in the initial sentence, there is a nuance of sence:
кто знаком с этой книгой
кому известна эта книга вообще и ее содержание в деталях
кто, возможно, дочитывает ее сейчас, но еще не дочитал до конца
This could be the reason of use of imperfective verb читал.
General rule is
- Perfective verbs answer the question что СДЕЛАТЬ? I.e. the process has to be finished and the effect has to be achieved. Если я прочла книгу, это значит, что книга прочтена полностью.
- Imperfective verbs answer the question что ДЕЛАТЬ? I.e. they reflect a process in its development. It is very similar to continuous tence in English. Если я все еще читаю книгу, это значит, что я еще не добралась до финала.
Wait for me!
Подожди меня!
То есть, подожди, пока я не буду готов. There is an indication to result of this process: as soon as the speaker is ready, second person doesn't need to wait any longer.
Don't wait for me!
Не жди меня!
То есть, занимайся своими делами и не привязывай свои планы к моим. There is no indication to a result, but there is an accent to a process - занимайся своими делами.
I hope it is helpful. :-)
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 05:54 am (UTC)Подожди меня!
Don't wait for me!
Не жди меня!
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 05:57 am (UTC)"Подожди меня" is when you ask somebody to wait for you for some time (usually a short while) and implying that you are going to catch up with the waiting person soon, while "жди меня" is about a more general idea of waiting for someone (for a longer period) or the very feeling of waiting for someone, longing to be reunited with someone, like in the poem mentioned above, where a man is addressing a lover or wife with whom he is temporally separated. (you can see the poem here - http://www.celuu.ru/lyrics/1227.html)
On the other hand, there is nothing poetic in "жди меня" when mentione the place or time where they should be waiting. "жди меня дома", "ждите меня завтра вечером", etc.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 06:18 am (UTC)If I hear Кто читал эту книгу - поднмите руку, I understand кто прочел.
This "perfective sence" exists here, but it is not hardly accented. The main sence and the main attention falls onto книга. In the sentence Кто прочел эту книгу - поднимите руку, the accent falls onto прочел (до конца).
Furtermore, Кто читал эту книгу - поднмите руку sounds for me a bit informal, idiomatical. So perfect grammar rules are a bit mixed up.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 06:58 am (UTC)кто читал труды Ленина - поднимите руку / кто прочел труды Ленина - поднимите руку
Как бы Вы их истолковали?
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 07:18 am (UTC)Кто читал труды Ленина = кто прочел хотя бы несколько статей; кто знаком хотя бы с основными идеями Ленина.
Акцент на автора.
Ленин - острая фигура и более чем неоднозначная. Его тексты перевирались, фальсифицировались, цензурировались многажды. Так что в исходной фразе я бы увидела акцент на знакомство с оригиналом, хотя точное понимание будет зависеть от контекста, конечно.
Кто прочел труды Ленина = кто осилил все 100 томов. (Если исходная фраза дана без контекста.)
Акценты и смысл между строк: Неужели ты это сделал! Зачем тебе это и откуда у тебя столько свободного времени?
То есть, разговор идет не столько о Ленине, сколько о читателе и процессе чтения.
Если в предшествующем контексте были заданы какие-то определенные труды Ленина, то в предложении "кто прочел труды Ленина" речь будет идти именно о них, а не обо всех 100 томах. (Как известно, отсутсиве артиклей в русском сбивает с толку. :-))
I've answered you in Russian because you asked me in Russian. If I shall translate it fully or partly, just tell me. However, I have impression that your Russian is very good and you don't need translation.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 07:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 07:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 06:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 06:40 am (UTC)Подожди(те) меня!
Don't wait for me!
Не жди(те) меня!
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 06:49 am (UTC)It's like the kind of joke:
-Ты учил стихотворение?
-Учил.
-Учил, но не выучил.
the first phrase can be translated as 'have you been learning the poem?', that gives you the right of the affirmative answer, even if the poem is still not learnt. but for sure the one who asks means 'have you learnt it?'. still this doesn't always happen this way, because here it's quite obvious that the dialogue involves such pairs as 'parent - kid' or 'teacher - student'. the same somehow can be said about the "кто читал эту книгу - поднимите руку", cause generally raise your hand reffers to some educational process (which, for sure, is 'result-orientated') and this very context can give the deceptive impression of the implied sence "прочитал".
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 07:18 am (UTC)Both "кто читал эту книгу" and "кто прочитал эту книгу" are correct but these sentences imply slightly different things. A teacher in a class who gave a task to read a book and now wants to see who has completed the task, would probably say "кто прочитал эту книгу", but a teacher who wants to know who is familiar with the book (not necessarily having read it just yesterday/this week/whenever), would ask "кто читал эту книгу". I hope this clarifies things a little bit.
As for your second question, the most common variants outside of any given context would be "подожди меня" и "не жди меня", but as
Part 1...
Date: 2010-08-17 08:04 am (UTC)You've already gotten a number of good answers, and, hopefully, the issue of verbal aspect (глагольный вид) is starting to make more sense. : )
Indeed, as has already been mentioned, the use of the imperfective читал in the sentence you quoted is equivalent to stating, "Raise your hand if you are *familiar* with this book."
True, from *our* point of view, it would seem to make sense that, as we are talking about the PAST tense, we would need a perfective form (прочитал) in this case; however, that's not how Russian works. Or, rather, that's one of the wonderful options that Russian can choose to emphasize -- or NOT -- through the use of aspect.
I tend to liken verbal aspect in Russian to the use of articles in English (a/an, the). Imagine that someone asked you to state which of the following sentences is "correct":
1) Don't watch THE movie, read THE book.
2) Don't watch A movie, read A book.
3) Don't watch THE movie, read A book.
4) Don't watch A movie, read THE book.
What would you say? Which ONE of the above is "correct"? Obviously it's impossible to say... unless you know what the context is (or at least what I'm thinking :-)). All of the sentences are, in fact, possible. It depends on the context and what the speaker is thinking... and that's exactly the same situation with verbal aspect in Russian. In some cases (e.g., after verbs like начинать/начать, продолжать/продолжить, заканчивать/закончить), only an imperfective verb can be used (Вы уже закончили читать эту книгу? Нет, я еще не начинал ее читать.) -- the use of "прочитать" here would simply be grammatically incorrect.
BUT I can ask a friend, "Ты читал эту книгу?" OR "Ты прочитал эту книгу?" The choice of aspect in such a situation would depend upon what, exactly, I'm trying to emphasize. If I'm looking to buy the same book (having, for example, just seen it on sale somewhere) and I simply want to know if it's a decent read, I can use the imperfective читал.
If, on the other hand, I have given this friend MY copy of the book and I either want it back or am, perhaps, simply curious whether he has finished it (so that we can discuss the ending), I would use the perfective прочитал in order to emphasize "Have you FINISHED reading the book [yet]?"
It simply depends on what we're trying (or want) to emphasize. In some cases (as with the 4 English examples above), both imperfective and perfective are possible (with a difference in meaning, of course). In other cases, only one is possible... and rules will often only help as general guidelines.
Asking a Russian to choose the "correct" version between "Читайте книгу!" and "Прочитайте книгу!" would be equally fruitless without any context. Are you trying to tell the listener to *start* reading the book... or simply read *some* of the book, or are you trying to emphasize that the listener should, indeed, read the ENTIRE thing? It depends what you want to say....
A couple points to keep in mind:
1) Using the imperfective (in the past or future) does NOT mean that the action in question was not (or will not be) completed. This is a key point to remember, as we are typically told/taught that "perfective = completion"... therefore, imperfective must mean NOT completed. Wrong! It MIGHT mean that the action wasn't completed. It also might simply mean that the speaker wanted to emphasize the process (and that the fact of whether the action was completed or not just wasn't important at that point).
2) Using the perfective (almost) always has a REASON. (I often like to say that the perfective has to have a "reason to exist".) Russians don't just go throwing perfective verbs around left and right. Their use has to be motivated by something (typically within the context of the situation). Take the example above of "Ты прочитал эту книгу?" Walking in on some friend and asking, out of the blue, "Ты прочитал эту книгу?" would most likely seem a bit strange. It's like walking in and asking, "Did you read THE book?" to someone who has no idea what book you're talking about. IF, however, the friend in question *is* aware that it's YOUR book and that you said you would want it back in a week, then there's some context -- some common basis -- which makes your question more sensible.
... continued below...
Part 2...
Date: 2010-08-17 08:05 am (UTC)You might also run across questions such as "Где вы ПОКУПАЛИ эту рубашку?" Obviously, the individual has "completely" purchased his/her shirt. But the FOCUS of the question is not on the completion of the action but, rather, on WHERE the action took place... thus the use of the imperfective.
Does that make any sense??
Another example (similar to one posted above) would be:
- Я не читал эту книгу.
- Я не прочитал эту книгу.
In the first sentence, I didn't even crack the book -- it's still sitting on my shelf unopened. In other words, the action of reading did NOT even take place at all. In the second sentence, though, I opened the book and even did some reading -- how much reading, we simply don't know. All we do know is that I didn't FINISH reading it. But the action of reading *definitely* took place.
So we can view the two sentences above as "absence of any action" (= no reading took place) and "failure to achieve goal" (= I didn't manage to make it to the end... although I tried).
As for imperatives, they basically follow the same general guidelines as regular imperfective and perfective verb forms. If you want to emphasize the action itself OR regular repetition, use an imperfective. If, however, you want to emphasize completion of an action on ONE occasion, use perfective:
- Студенты, откройте учебники и читайте статью на странице 53.
In this case, we want the students to open their textbooks (definite action, one occasion) and START reading (or do SOME reading). Whether the article on p. 53 needs to be completely read is not stated. The instructor just wants everyone to start reading.
If, on the other hand, we said:
- Студенты, откройте учебники и ПРОчитайте статью на странице 53.
then we want everyone to read through the article to the END. (In that case, the instructor would probably add some further instructions, such as, "Then answer the questions on p. 54" or "Write a summary of the article when you're finished reading." -- either way, there has to be a REASON that the instructor wants the students to read all the way to the end.)
Remember that in cases of repetitive action, we need to use an imperfective (EVEN if we want the action to be completed on each occasion). So, if we want students to open the window in the classroom every day when class begins, we would need to say:
- Открывайте окна...
because we're talking about a regular, repeated process. Using "откройте" would be possible only if we were speaking of a single instance... such as "right now".
...and Part 3 : )
Date: 2010-08-17 08:07 am (UTC)- Студенты, не открывайте окна, пожалуйста!
Because we're using an imperfective here, we *could* use this either for a single instance or on multiple occasions (Никогда не открывайте окна...).
There are some situations (although they are, indeed, not as frequent as the window example above) where we can't avoid a PROCESS... typically because the action in question occurs involuntarily. In these cases we can only hope to avoid the COMPLETION/RESULT of the action:
- Саша, не ПОТЕРЯЙ эти деньги!
Sasha is, obviously, not going to lose the money on purpose. If he does happen to misplace it, it will be an involuntary action. So, by using the perfective here, we are expressing our desire that the RESULT (= lost money) not take place.... Again, situations like these are comparatively rare and most often deal with actions over which we have little or no control:
- Не ЗАБУДЬ, что у тебя завтра важное собрание! (The individual in this case obviously doesn't WANT to forget his/her meeting -- if he/she forgets, it will be by accident. We thus have to use a perfective, since the "process of forgetting" is simply not avoidable -- we just are hoping to avoid a situation where the RESULT takes place [i.e., the individual completely forgets about the meeting].) Compare this to:
- Не забывай меня! -- Don't forget (about) me! In this case, the individual we are speaking to can consciously choose whether or not to keep in touch. By using the imperfective here, we signal our desire that the BEGINNING of the action of forgetting not take place.
One more example:
- Смотри, не упади! Тут очень скользко.
Once again, because it's slippery outside, we can't avoid slipping -- it's not something that's under our control (and so we can't use an imperfective here, because the ACTION of slipping will take place whether we want it to or not). What we CAN hope to avoid is the "completion of falling" -- in other words, hitting the ground. Lots of these negative commands (which are actually more wish-like in their meaning) start with "Смотри..." -- "Watch out!/Be careful!".
I hope some of that made some sense.
Russian verbal aspect is a fairly complex topic that combines BOTH context and the speaker's intention AND the meaning of the individual verb. So there aren't many "one size fits all" rules, because different verbs have different meanings, different possibilities. But if you keep the general guidelines in mind -- imperfective = emphasis on the ACTION (without focusing on whether it was or wasn't completed) or REPETITION; perfective = emphasis on RESULT (with some subsequent effect or some purpose for being) -- you should begin to get a feel for why Russians choose one aspect over the other.
Sorry to be so long-winded. :-(
Keep studying. Russian is definitely worth it!! : )
- Andrew : )
Re: ...and Part 3 : )
Date: 2010-08-17 02:52 pm (UTC)Thanks!
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
Re: ...and Part 3 : )
Date: 2010-08-20 08:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 10:02 am (UTC)Really, when we ask "ты читал эту книгу?" or "ты смотрел этот фильм?" we often suppose to ask whether the askee has read or watched it to the end, and so we take risk to receive an answer like "читал, но не дочитал" or "смотрел, но не досмотрел", or even he or she may answer just 'yes', having in fact not read or watched it to the end. This can lead to funny confusions.
In fact, when we ask questions like "ты читал эту книгу?", we usually don't know whether he has started to read it, nor whether he was going to start reading it, nor sometimes whether he has ever even heard about it. If I ask "ты прочитал эту книгу?", it means either that I know he has already started to read it, or that I (or someone else) recommended this book to him and he promised to read it or at least showed some interest.
The teacher in the class can use either of these variants according to situation. In your example "Кто читал эту книгу -- поднимите руку" it is more likely (though not definitely) about some out-of-curriculum book. However, if the book was the pupils' homework, it also can perfective or imperfective:
- Ты прочитал "Капитанскую дочку", как я велела? - here he was to read it, so it's perfective.
- И тогда Гринёв вызвал Пугачёва на дуэль, а Швабрин подарил Марье Ивановне тулуп...
- Что за чушь ты несёшь? Ты книгу вообще читал? (What nonsense! Did you even read the book?) - I'm not very good at English, but I suppose it should be indefinite in English, too. The teacher wonders if the pupil even opened the book, let alone read it to the end.
2) Regarding "Wait for me/don't wait for me": I've already explained the usage of perfective/imperfective forms in negative imperative on a different forum, so I'll just copy-paste:
Perfective form in negative imperative is rare and colloquial, and usually bears meaning "watch out/be careful". Examples:
Допроси подозреваемого как следует, только не убивай - Interrogate the suspect properly, but don't kill him (supposing your interlocutor is capable of killing him on purpose, and telling him not to do it).
Допроси подозреваемого как следует, только не убей - Interrogate the suspect properly, but don't kill him (meaning 'be careful so not to kill him accidentally').
Смотри не упади, дорога скользкая - Don't fall down, the road is slippery.
Можешь идти вперёд, только не падай - опять схлопочешь карточку - You may advance forward, but don't fall down - you'll get another card (says a coach to a footballer who tends to simulate).
In short, imperfect means 'don't do it intentionally', while perfect means 'don't do it occasionally'. Thus, "не подожди меня" is impossible.
Подожди меня and жди меня are equally possible.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 10:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 03:58 pm (UTC)Кто читал эту книгу? Я читал эту книгу. implies that subject did read it throughout till the end, but not recently. If recently, then it would be Кто прочёл/прочитал эту книгу? (home assignment, sure)? Я прочёл/прочитал эту книгу недавно/вчера/на прошлой неделе.
Кто читал эту книгу? (at any point in one's life)? Я читал эту книгу (давно/в детстве/много лет назад).
Прочитал/прочёл implies recent action quite strongly. Читал means never mind where. Maybe not even to the end but one who читал poesesses enough memory/knowledge to discuss something about the book (plot, author's views etc)
no subject
Date: 2010-08-17 03:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-24 04:24 am (UTC)Yeah, that's more accurate. However, why Past Continous? IMO Past Indefinite would do as well. There's no sign that the one who asks question is talking (or interested in) how long did it take the rest to read a book.
"And, I am still totally befuddled as to which verb to use (imperfective vs. perfective) when making an imperative."
That one depends on the context. Lets suppose a young, infamous author arranged a meeting with his readers, but somehow missed the room and came to a completely different one:
- Добрый день, я - Молодой Автор. Рад встрече с моими читателями! He then see that the people around have no idea what he's talking about and decides to clear things up.
- Я надеюсь, что все присутствующие прочитали мою книгу? The audience looks like: "What book?!"
- Ну, вы её хотя бы читали? The audience is even more surprised, but before anyone could say anything young author facepalms and runs away crying.
The first question was whether anyone read the book through. Obviously the author realised he kept his hopes too high, that's why the second question was if anyone opened (and tried to read) the book at all.
Again, if we are talking about a teacher asking about homework done, perfect would do. See, usually students are to read part of the book due to the specific lesson, not the whole book itself. So while they are done reading the paragraph they were ordered to, they may be not finished reading the whole book yet. In order to keep that piece of sense you might want to rephrase the sentence a little bit:
"Those who have read this paragraph (chapter, whatever) - please raise your hand!"