Semantics question - враньё и ложь

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Hello, community members! Happy Victory Day!

My friend's mother is interested in philosophy, and she recently heard a lecture about language and morality, where the professor - who is a philosopher, but not a linguist and not a Russian speaker(!) - argued that some languages have different words for "to lie" where one word is used for bad lies and another for less-bad lies. His example was Russian, враньё versus ложь. My friend's mom wanted to know - is it true that these words have different meanings and different moral values? (Like, ложь is really bad, and враньё is not so bad?)

I didn't know. What do you think?

Comments

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

It's quite simple: враньё is a very intense qolloquial expression, while ложь is a stylistically neutral commonly used word. They mean the same, except that to say "это враньё!" is as acceptable in, say, diplomatic or academic context as "ain't that bloody lies?" -- while "это ложь!" is totally acceptable even in front of your rich 104 years old great-grandmother whose money you hope to inherit one day ;-)

UPD P.S. If you want a "not so bad" expression, that'll be "это неправда" (literally, this is not the truth.)

[vorobeika.livejournal.com]

Враньё is just more common, I think.
Ложь can be used for "very bad" and "not so bad", depends on context.
Also ложь sometimes sounds more pathetically.
Враньё is always bad, but not strong.

Excuse my English

[ember-cyprus.livejournal.com]

I would go a bit firther and say that such expressions are far less common than their verb-equivalents ('you're lying' instead of 'it's a lie'). Ты врешь is very strong and less formal, ты лжешь sounds a bit bookish and more formal, while ты меня обманываешь is a "not so bad" expression here.
As for the nouns, ложь is also more bookish and formal, that's why вранье can be found more often in everyday speech, but as wolk_off said, not in formal context

[racoonbear.livejournal.com]

Лжец is very strong. Врушка sounds almost tenderly.

[hellina.livejournal.com]

No, it is not true -
The relation between вранье и ложь is more of a colloquial-formal kind.

[helen-ricky.livejournal.com]

+1
Also "брехня", "враки"

[racoonbear.livejournal.com]

Лжёшь - is very strong
Врёшь is not so strong
Привираешь sounds like something lightweight.

Tales, Fibs, and Lies

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I think English has a similar approach. For example, a "tale" or a "tall tale" may be a socially acceptable untruth, to some extent (as in a "fairy-tale"). A "fib" (derived from "fable") is a trivial untruth. Children often tell "fibs." In addition there are different shades of "lies". "White lies" may be necessary to achieve a greater good. However, "black lies" are really "despicable."

From my observations, "враньё" can collocate with "fib", and "ложь" with "lie."

Re: Tales, Fibs, and Lies

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I thought about this, too. I wasn't at the philosopher's lecture, but it really seems like his argument (which reportedly involved something about how it's hard to write laws and treaties in Russian, because of the moral ambiguity of lying) is just ridiculous.

Re: Tales, Fibs, and Lies

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

>it's hard to write laws and treaties in Russian, because of the moral ambiguity of lying

Laws and treaties in Russian are written in legal Russian, which makes no difficulty to single out and convey one single meaning of any word or expression, just as legal English does. I have no idea where did your philosopher get this strange concept. Maybe he was thinking (judging by how Russia and Russians were portrayed in Hollywood movies) that Russians were some kind of an ancient tribe with an archaic language, which did not have branches such as academic, legal, scientific, vernacular, obscene etc. Well, when we see Hollywood movies with Russians in them, we even start to believe the same thing ourselves -- until we get back to everyday life, where we need to use all those well-elaborated branches of Russian language in various everyday occasions.

Re: Tales, Fibs, and Lies

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'd really like to meet this philosopher guy. I kind of want to get his name from my friend's mom and write him a little note.

If we want to give him slightly more credit, we can imagine that he gets his information about Russians not only from Hollywood movies, but has perhaps done some reading on the problems with rule of law in post-Soviet Russia - bribery, impenetrable bureaucracy, corruption, etc. But if he wants to argue that those problems come from linguistic inadequacies, well, he's still an idiot!

Re: Tales, Fibs, and Lies

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

At least bribery, bureacuracy and corruption do not appear out of the absence (or ambundance) of the words that define them.

Re: Tales, Fibs, and Lies

[nataxxa.livejournal.com]

I am quite sure that you will never see вранье in laws or any official papers. And no judge in court will say 'Показания Иванова - вранье", if it is not in tv-show:))

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Thank you, everyone! These comments are very helpful. Someone should write that philosopher a letter explaining the difference between stylistics and morality. :)

[phoonzang.livejournal.com]

they also use истина and ложь в математической логике, типа «утверждение А истинно, а утверждение Б ложно».

Re: Semantics question - враньё и ложь

[mon-arsenic.livejournal.com]

I recently had a lecture about it. It's realy so, because you use "вранье" for thing, which doesn't bother you at all. And the word "ложь" is used about thing, which could realy hurt you, or this fact is realy important for you.
(exuse me for my english)

Re: Semantics question - враньё и ложь

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

ORLY.

Re: Semantics question - враньё и ложь

[hellina.livejournal.com]

How about "Ваши обвинения - полное вранье! (It is not formal Russian, but it's used commonly enough to refute your hypothesis.)
I would say that in this particular case "вранье" DOES bother the speaker.

[ohar.livejournal.com]

English has such worlds too: "lie" and "false".