Participles again

[philena.livejournal.com]

Is it possible for a verb to be passivized both through a passive participle and through -ся? For example, do (1) and (2) below mean (roughly) the same thing?

1. Это слово произносится так ( . . .)
2. Это слово произнесшее так ( . . .)

("This word is pronounced thus: ( . . .) )

If these sentences are bad, do pairs like what I'm trying to create exist--pairs that mean the same thing, and differ only in whether the verb is a passive participle or an active form that uses -ся? If so, could I have some examples?

Thank you.

Comments

[uncle-gora.livejournal.com]

The second one is completely incorrect.

[scolar.livejournal.com]

The second one is totally incorrect, because "произнесшее" is past active participle. Passive participle is "произносимое" (present) or "произнесённое" (past). But the phrase Это слово, произносимое так (...) is incomplete. It either requires a predicate (e.g. Это слово, произносимое так (...), пишется так(...).), or should be a preedicate itself (e.g. То, что имеется в виду - это слово, произносимое так (...)).
===================================
The other ways to say the same as 1 are:
3. Это слово нужно (надо, следует, полагается, принято) произносить так (...) - This word should be pronounced...
4. Это слово [обычно] произносят так (. . .) - [People] [usually] pronounce this word...

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

Um, although often semantically related and equivalent, the reflexivity, passive voice and impersonal mood aren't quite the same thing:
Это слово произносят так... <- impersonal (the actor/"they" is missing)
Это слово произносится так... <- reflexive (the word acts on itself)
Это слово [было/будет произнесено]/[бывает произносимо] так... <- passive voice (the word was/is/will be acted upon by somebody; this is both informal and passive voice if the actor is unspecified).

The form which you list, произнесшее, is the equivalent of "the one that pronounced" (not "the one that IS pronounced" nor just "IS pronounced").

Example, if you didn't get it:
Человек, произнёсший эту речь, - наш директор.
The person, who/that delivered this speech, is our director.

Now a tad more to get you scared (:

произнёсший/ая/ее = he/she/it who/that DID pronounce something
произносящий/ая/ее = he/she/it who/that pronouncES/IS pronouncING something
произнесущий/ая/ее = he/she/it who/that WILL pronounce something

произнесённый/ая/ое = he/she/it who/that WAS pronouncED
произносимый/ая/ое = he/she/it who/that IS (BEING) pronouncED
будущий/ая/ее произнесённым/ой/ым = he/she/it who/that WILL BE pronouncED (it gets rather complicated here)

There're plurals of the above too.

[philena.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Actually, I have been thoroughly taught for many years about the different participles, so you didn't scare me. I just got freaked out by "Omigod! Verb of motion! Scary!" and gave an active instead of passive participle. In theory, I know the difference, although evidently I can't produce it on command. (Next semester my class will cover participles (again---it will be the third time since starting the language) and I'm sure I'll get better for a few months before getting confused again.)

I notice that in your correction,

Это слово [было/будет произнесено]/[бывает произносимо] так

you use the short form. Is the long form incorrect, or simply dispreferred?

Regarding your discussion of passive, reflexive, and impersonal sentences: I understand that they are not exactly the same. However, if you reduce it to truth conditions,, are they equivalent? In other words, is there ever a situation in which "Это слово произносится . . ." is true, while "Это слово произносен(н)о(е) . . ." is false?

[oryx_and_crake]

Certainly not equivalent. "Это слово, произнесенное..." (btw, mind the spelling) means that you refer to a particular occasion when this word was pronounced. This construction also cannot be a standalone one. While, on the other hand, "Это слово произносится (give the pronunciation here" means that all or most people in all or most cases were, are and will be pronouncing it the way you indicated. This is also a complete sentence.

[philena.livejournal.com]

Suppose it were past tense:

Это слово произносился ( . . .)

Это слово было произнесенное ( . . .)

Would they both be complete sentences then?

[philena.livejournal.com]

And that should be произносилось---sorry.

[oryx_and_crake]

слово произносилось (слово is neuter)
слово было произнесено

yes, both of these are complete sentences.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

You probably wanted to ask if their meaning was the same, no? Like I said earlier, yes, often they are the same. And this is the case. But I wouldn't be surprised to see an example, where there's some difference in the meaning.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

Ah, once again I have to think about it (the short adjective) or reach for the book...

OK, adjectives have several functions. When you describe a feature/property/characteristic, something inherent/long-lasting you use the long form. When you describe a temporary condition/state, you can use the short form. You don't use the short adjective for inherent/long-lasting properties.
Compare:
Он больной = he's suffering from a chronic disease or he's insane
Он болен = he's sick right now
Он старый = he's old
Он (слишком) стар (для ...) = he's too old for something/somebody

There's another aspect, more apparent grammatically. You can't place a short adjective in front of the noun it modifies (unlike the long adjective):

Красивое дерево. correct
Дерево красивое. correct
Красиво дерево. wrong
Дерево красиво. correct
Красиво дерево растёт. correct, but here it's an adverb, not a short adjective

Красивое/красиво дерево было. both correct, adjective in both
Дерево красивое/красиво было. both correct, adjective in both
Дерево было красивое/красиво. both correct, adjective in both

Красивое/красиво дерево росло. both correct, adjective vs adverb
Дерево красивое/красиво росло. both correct, adjective vs adverb
Дерево росло красивое/красиво. both correct, adjective vs adverb

There're a few special uses for short adjectives:

- это/то, что, всё require the short adjective:
всё, что интересно = all that is interesting
это плохо = this is bad

- you use short forms of должный and нужный when you express a need, that is, somebody has to do something or somebody needs something:
я должен работать = I have to work
мне нужна книга = I need the book
Here you can treat it both ways: the adjective plays the role of the verb or the verb быть is implied and everything's normal

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

Um... If it's still not clear, in that sentence with [было/будет произнесено]/[бывает произносимо] the short adjective is used because particular moments are referred to (one in the past/future, many in the present, but not all), not all the time. You capture the state (actually, more like an action in this case) at those particular instants.