извиниться/to excuse oneself

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Once in my journal I said "извиняюсь" (literally "I excuse myself") to mean "excuse me," and all the native Russian speakers replied in unison that this is a bad form that should never be used, because it doesn't make logical sense. (Not making logical sense is a poor reason for not using an expression, but that's irrelevant, I guess - the point is, "извиняюсь," much like "звОнит," is improper Russian, even though people use it in regular speech.)

Question, then: are all forms of the verb "извиниться" equally improper? Or just the first-person singular present tense is wrong? e.g. is it just as bad to say "он извинился", or is that ok?

Thanks, guys! And с праздником прошедшим! (Happy belated Thanksgiving!)

Comments

[liludalas.livejournal.com]

i don't find anything improper with "извиняюсь"

probably the verb "извиняться" sounds a bit odd to me, if looked at closely because it's very strange to say "извинять себя" when the actual meaning is to apologise

It's very common

[nastya-23.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's better to say "извините" or "извините меня", when you actually apologize.

[quorax.livejournal.com]

Or "прошу прощения".

[skogens-kjole.livejournal.com]

This form is colloquial, the recomended variant is "извини(-те) меня".

[dr-cmok.livejournal.com]

This form is completely ok to be used. Yes, it's short and not so much "literary" and/or "official" as complete phrase. And it's more up to what a speaking person is used to say. And извиняюсь is far from being "I excuse myself", it's much closer to what in English is called "present continous".

[slovami.livejournal.com]

In English we don't really use the present continuous with the verb "excuse." The present simple can be used with this verb to express a one-time, presently occurring action. This is probably on the pattern of other similar verbs, like "I beg your pardon" or "I ask your forgiveness."

("I excuse myself" also sounds pretty strange/formal... but at least it's grammatically correct. "I'm excusing myself" sounds bizarre.)

[dr-cmok.livejournal.com]

My fault, I wasn't precise enough, but you've got close to what I've meant to say: it's closer to "I'm begging your pardon", just very brief :).
Again, to my mind, it's ok to read literary text (and to write in official texts), but live language is always a bit different for it's always evolving. And when you'll start to speak such a "right" Russian, you'll soon be asked to say it simpler. ;)

[slovami.livejournal.com]

But we don't say "I'm begging your pardon." We say "I beg your pardon."

[dr-cmok.livejournal.com]

Well, of course there's no direct correspondance. But I hope you've got my reasons :)

[dr-cmok.livejournal.com]

PS also you can find interesting this: http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/869062.html?thread=13430470#t13430470

[wileyokiley.livejournal.com]

Actually, some of us do say "I'm begging your pardon" (or more simply, "Begging your pardon"). If it still sounds strange, try adding ", miss" to the end of either one and saying it in your best English accent. Or just google the phrase "begging your pardon".

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Ah, good point. I don't think it usually happens with "I'm" in front, but definitely... "Beggin' your pardon, ma'am!"

[merry1978.livejournal.com]

If you try to find this form anywhere in literature, from an educated person and in this exact meaning ("I am sorry"), you won't find it. Therefore, it IS by defifition colloqial and not quite proper.

Most older people find it strongly impolite.

[dr-cmok.livejournal.com]

Извиняюсь, but you're completely wrong. Take this:
(Ushakov's dictionary)

ИЗВИНЯ'ТЬСЯ, я́юсь, я́ешься, несов.

1. Несов. к извиниться.
2. Страд. к извинять.
3. 1 л. наст. вр. извиня́юсь употр. также в знач. извини, извините меня (простореч.). Извиняюсь, я опоздал.

PS and, please, don't speak for the "most (of) older people", for I can name a lot of older and very good educated people (including those with linguistic education) who find no shame in using simple Russian words.

[oryx_and_crake]

Exactly: re-read your quotation carefully, it says that using извиняюсь in the meaning of извините is "простореч." This means that anyone using this form comes across as an illiterate redneck who does not know better.

[temniy-mu.livejournal.com]

of course, he does know better, but... it's a bit of ironic sense in it, you know, and that's really quite colloquial.
don't you listen to anybody here who disses such a good word, be fairly confident to use it, if the situation doesn't refer to smh serious.
and 'zvOnit' has nothing common with all that at all ))

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Well, it has one thing in common, which is the reaction of educated Russians when they hear me say it. :)

[temniy-mu.livejournal.com]

they stiff-necks then ! (come on guys, find out in your dictionaries lol )

actually, извини/те well, it's reffering to a formal case, you know, when you knocked somebody down in moscow metro you would rather say 'извините' or 'извините пожалуйста', it's a sort of true apology meaning that you did smh really wrong, you've been boorish, you'd never do that again as you never got used to it. And, if you've been late, so being late is maybe typical of you, who knows, as in the exapmle.. so you might say извиняюсь, опоздал when you turn out to come to the meeting.

[oryx_and_crake]

No, it is not OK. "я извиняюсь" instead of "извините" is completely unacceptable.

[joliecanard.livejournal.com]

It is not always completely unacceptable. It depends on the context. See merry1978's comment.

[merry1978.livejournal.com]

First of all, this problem only occurs with this one from, "извиняюсь". Any other -ся forms are OK.

Secondly, this form can be used in two different meanings. One is an exact synonym of "I am sorry", "I apologize", etc. The other is a parenthetical word, meaning something like "forgive me for using this word/speaking of this/being impolite" etc, for example "Он, я извиняюсь, совсем дурак?" (more or less = "Pardon me, but is he really completely nuts?")

Both variants you will never find in literature in the speach of an educated person. Therefore, they are colloqial by definition. But if the latter one is just not quite literary, the former one is often considered impolite by older people, especially educated and well-mannered. So you sould never use it in oficial setting or with older people you don't really know. With younger people it is usualy OK. But if you want to sound really polite, not just apologizing because it is expected from you, you should just use "извини(те)" or "прости(те)".

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Thanks, this is a very clear explanation!

[barbarisotschka.livejournal.com]

I think that "izvinitsia pered kem-to" is a completely normal construction. Maybe "izviniaius" sounds strange/colloquial if/because you miss the "pered kem" part? That's just an (un)educated guess of another non-native speaker.
I think that I've heard the phrase "zaranee izviniaius" quite often. And you can't work with "izvini/te" here. Simultlaniously mentioned a similar exampel something similar in the comment above.

PS. They had a discussion on that topic on gramota.ru, too. They didn't came to a clear decision either.
http://forum.gramota.ru/forum/read.php?f=15&i=982&t=982

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

You can say something like "я (,конечно,) извиняюсь, но + some fact" in an objection. You kind of excuse yourself due to something that supports your claim/belief.

What was the context?

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

"Извиняюсь" = "Извиняю себя". If taken seriously, this means you're the one deciding that you're excused. Which is pretty inconsiderate.

Some people find such particularities to be unreasonable. Too lazy to appreciate the brilliance and variety of the language. :)

As for the use in speech, it is, erm, still better than nothing. ~_~

[aromanov.livejournal.com]

You're right, извиняюсь is colloquial and it's okay only if звОнит is okay :) Common use is not a reason why you should learn a bad Russian.

[aromanov.livejournal.com]

And by the way, we don't have such holiday as Thanksgiving ;)

[slovami.livejournal.com]

I am aware of that.

[helen-ricky.livejournal.com]

Извиняюсь is not really improper.
For example:
- зачем ты упал на колени перед этой девушкой?
- я извиняюсь (explain the situation)

It's improper only if you use it instead of Извините