More on "давно" and "долго"

[david-us.livejournal.com]

One of the texts I use is called "Introductory Russian Grammar". On p. 169 there is actually a section entitled "Давно and долго".

Sometimes these grammar books are not always exactly correct. I am going to type, verbatim, what is in this section and I would appreciate it if one of you native Russians would confirm/correct what it says.

* * * * Introductory Russian Grammar * * * *

(1) With the past tense, давно refers to something that occurred long ago, or, when the verb is in the negative, to something which has not occurred in a long time:

Всё это было давно.
All that happened long ago.

Я давно ему не писал.
I haven't written to him for a long time.

Мы давно не были в театре.
We haven't been to the theater for a long time.

(2) With the present tense, давно refers to an action or state initiated in the past but continuing in the present:

Вы давно здесь?
Have you been here long?

Иван давно живёт в Ленинграде.
Ivan has been living in Leningrad for a long time

(NOTE: Oddly, the above sentence is almost exactly the same one in the original homework post.)

(3) Долго, meaning a long time, refers to the duration of an action or condition:

Он долго жил в Советском Союзе, почти всю жизнь.
He lived in the Soviet Union for a long time, almost all his life.

Я вчера долго говорил по телeфону с Борисом.
Yesterday I talked for a long time on the phone with Boris.

Он всегда долго говорит по телефону.
He always talks a long time on the phone.

* * * * end of citation * * * *

Part (3) of the explanation says долго is used for duration. Yet, the example sentence "Вы давно здесь?" specifically addresses a duration, yet, давно is used.

I'm really going to have to think about this. The many examples help, but I still find it a bit confusing - but probably not to a Russian. :)

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

All that the textbook says is correct.

As to "Вы давно здесь?" - just take into account that this is an implicit present tense (the verb "to be" in present tense is usually omitted in modern Russian), and as such "refers to an action or state initiated in the past but continuing in the present", i.e. p.2 above.

[ars-longa.livejournal.com]

It's really easy, as far as I see. Давно refers to the length of time that passed since some event or action, and долго refers to the duration of the event or action.

[oryx_and_crake]

Not exactly, see p.2 above: if давно is used in the present tense, it refers to the duration, too, e.g. "Вы давно здесь сидите?"

[ars-longa.livejournal.com]

In this case "Вы долго тут сидите?" is also legitimate. I'm not saying it's totally soundproof, but on the whole, it's a good way to determine which of those words to use.

[oryx_and_crake]

"Вы долго тут сидите?" sounds wrong to me. It is either Вы долго тут сидели? or Вы давно тут сидите?

[ars-longa.livejournal.com]

Doesn't sound wrong to me. Regional differences, I assume.

[cherniavska.livejournal.com]

I agree. It sounds wrong to me too.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say exactly "wrong" - it's just an awkward, clumsy construction which wouldn't be used because the same idea can be put into "Вы давно тут сидите?", only withouth such awkwardness and clumsiness :)

I guess that those who do not feel this clumsiness, belong to te same branch of speakers who use "зачем" and "почему" interchangeably (Southern dialect.)

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

Вы давно здесь? is correct and it assumes being in this particular location without an explicit use of a verb.
Вы долго здесь? is wrong -- you need to put a verb somewhere and долго will apply to the action described by the verb. E.g.: Вы долго здесь живете?

[oryx_and_crake]

Actually, I think that you cannot ask "Вы долго здесь живете?" It sounds wrong. You should either use давно or change живете to жили.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

It doesn't sound wrong to me and I see a many uses of this construct on the web. Google these:
вы долго здесь живете?
долго+живете
долго+живете -слишком

[oryx_and_crake]

Sounds definitely wrong to me. The fact that it googles does not mean anything: try to google "база даных", for example, and you will get almost sixteen million hits.

[pigmeich.livejournal.com]

Oddly, in this sixteen millions (twenty seven for me) even top results say "база данных". Such frequent IT phrases are checked and automatically substitute wrong ones.

[oryx_and_crake]

OK, search for "база даных" in quotation marks (exact hit). Still it is about 12,000 hits. My point was not the number of hits but the idea that wrong versions are still searchable by google, so this it not a proof that they are correct.

[pigmeich.livejournal.com]

My point is same. And I use comparison of right spelled version (more 6 millions) opposed to wrong one (about 12 thousand).

There's intresting that such comparsion detects right spelled version almost all the time.

[pigmeich.livejournal.com]

In this case:

"долго живете" -- 5 610
"давно живете" -- 9 620

Two to one, so "both are acceptable in colloquial usage"

"долго живете" -слишком -- 1 980
"давно живете" -слишком -- 5 300

More sharp ratio, so prefer second variant.

[cherniavska.livejournal.com]

It definitely sounds wrong to me too. Not a literary norm.

[zhp.livejournal.com]

sorry, do you really think that if anything sounds wrong to you it's not a literary norm?

Moderatorial

[oryx_and_crake]

She has expressed her opinion. Please be civil and, if you have an opinion contrary to hers, you are very welcome to express it, too. What you certainly are not welcome to do here is making pointless remarks to incite flame.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

I hope she misspoke. :) In any case, the live language is much broader than literary and other norms. I personally hate it when people say наверьх, четверьх/четверьг and much less дьверь and дьвести. I think older people tend to speak so. At the same time I've heard so many misplaced stresses in words like звонит, that I'm fine with either and I actually would need to think hard if I were asked to identify the correct one.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

And then there're logical absurdities in the live language, which aren't probably examined by the literary norm guards, although should...

People say:

Эта стоит вполовину дешевле, чем та. Think about it: в means multiplication or division (на - addition or subtraction), since it's дешевле, division is implied. Now we get x / (1/2) = x * 2, or вдвое дороже. The correct (or at least unambiguous) are: на половину дешевле and вдвое дешевле.

People also say:

Жидкая формула препарата обладает мгновенным стимулирующим действием. I'm sorry, but a formula in Russian is a formula, it's not a tangible object, let alone an object that can act on its own. It's an idea, a recipe.

[oryx_and_crake]

Жидкая формула препарата is just a bad calque from English.

[cherniavska.livejournal.com]

Well, I do have a Master degree in Slavic philology:))

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

Could be. I don't insist.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

To further clarify it... And I hope this is right.
Вы здесь? - the verb to be is assumed here just like with давно.
But долго needs an explicit verb.

[david-us.livejournal.com]

Here's an interesting exchange on this topic:
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080805150901AA4j871

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

I would agree with first commenter, oryx_and_crake, that давно refers to something that started (and probably ended, too) long time ago, and долго refers to something that lasted for a long time. The trick is that if somebody has been living here for a long time, he must have started to live here a long time ago, i.e. one fact is usually connected with other fact in reality. So people may think that it is the same notion, while it isn't.

To reiterate: давно implies that action started a long time ago (or hasn't been started since long time ago in negative form), but долго refers to the length of the action itself. And in case when BOTH facts are true (started long time ago and was long in duration) we use давно, but when only second fact is true we use долго.

[pigmeich.livejournal.com]

In general, there are no fatality mistakes in using adverbs. Those which close by meaning and may be mistaked, may be mistaked by native speakers too. Well, not by all speaker and not in all uses (prefer more informal and hurry environments), but may be.

Usage of similiar words is on precedent basis, rather strict gramatic basis, therefore all general rules will be incorrect.

Rather than digging down the exercise you should be better read some more Russian books. Take it as an advice :).