Learn Russian

Well, he did write well enough. He made a lot of grammatical mistakes but it is not a child's writing. It is hard to estimate his writing level. I would say his Russian is at the intermediate level.

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I cannot agree with you. For example, "Я предпочитаю ты дериш." (from the second page) is not acceptable Russian in any way (neither stylistically nor grammatically).

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I base my opinion on comparison between grammatical expectations for people who learn English as a Second Language and him, learning Russian as a second language. This why I would place him at the Lower Intermediate level. But again, there are many different level gradations, which I am not familiar with.

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Also, one of the true measures of having effectively learning a second language is if you can get your point across to another person. Marina, Oswald's wife, could not speak/read/understand English. I'm fairly certain that Marina understood everything Oswald was trying to convey to her in that note. Further, he would have probably SAID it better than he wrote it.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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"Levels

There are several different ways of measuring somebody's language level at any particular time. No world-wide system of measurement or rating exists. In general, all systems move from absolute beginner (no knowledge of the language) to advanced (equivalent to native-speaker), but the number of levels varies from system to system: some have 5 levels, some have 7 levels, some have 10 levels, and so on."
European 5-Level Scale

The assessment of many language examinations, including Cambridge ESOL examinations, is linked to an international five-level scale established by the Association of Language Testers in Europe (ALTE) and used for many European languages.
Level Description
1 Elementary Basic command of the language needed in a range of familiar situations, for example: can understand and pass on simple messages.
2 Lower
Intermediate Limited but effective command of the language in familiar situations, for example: can take part in a routine meeting on familiar topics, particularly in an exchange of simple factual information.
3 Upper
Intermediate Generally effective command of the language in a range of situations, for example: can make a contribution to discussions on practical matters.
4 Lower
Advanced Good operational command of the language in a wide range of real world situations, for example: can participate effectively in discussions and meetings.
5 Upper
Advanced Fully operational command of the language at a high level in most situations, for example: can argue a case confidently, justifying and making points persuasively.

http://www.englishclub.com/esl-exams/levels-european-scale.htm

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I agree that he might be placed at "lower intermediate", but in my mind it is not the same as "well enough" (anyway "well enough" is vague enough :-))

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I am sorry I didn't make myself clear enough. To me, he cannot be compared to a native speaker by any means but we have to use an appropriate method of placing a person who is studying Russian as a second language at an appropriate level. Is there a leveled language proficiency system similar to an English one in Russia for Russian as a Second Language speakers?

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There must be a system of language proficiency grades, because there is an official certification for Russian as a foreign language. (I don't know its name though, I just remember that some of the community members mentioned it.)

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Ok, here it is:
http://www.philol.msu.ru/rus/kaf/testcentre/ruscommon_1.htm
Where would you place him according to this system?

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Between Base and Level 1, probably.

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I would agree.

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yozhevich.livejournal.com

As a teacher, the thought of placing Lee Harvey Oswald in general is terrifying :) Normal students are scary enough...

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That's funny but nobody knows who your students really are?

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1. His Russian is quite bad.
2. "did he write better than a 5th grader?" is not the right question to ask, because a) a 5th grader native speaker will make mistakes in a completely different way than an adult non-native speaker, i.e. a 5th grader may make spelling errors but will never get lost in the noun declensions precisely because he is a native speaker; and b) all 5th graders are different, some make mistakes, some don't.
If you meant to ask whether his style is more childish than adult - again, it is difficult to say precisely because his Russian is bad.

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uncle-gora.livejournal.com

+100 to a)

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uncle-gora.livejournal.com

Which 5th grader are you trying to compare him to? Russian 5th grader would have a much better command of Russian language. After all a 5th grader there would be expected to write simple essay, comprehend and able to desribe primitive chemical, biological and phisical reactions. With a language level like that it's absolutely impossible.
Oswalds note is a complete mess. It looks like a word by word translation and in most cases even transliteration (he for example says 4 блоков unstead of 4 кварталов) from English.

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archaicos.livejournal.com

Could the latter be attributed to a play (native children) and attempt to make things look better and less judged (adult foreigners)? I for one, dislike it when English-speaking people are saying they aren't good at something (or they admit or expect to have made a mistake) and add a "ha-ha :)" after it. It's kind of weird and feels like they're making idiots out of themselves. Is it just me or there's indeed something wrong with it (maybe on cultural level)?

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Americans are much more defensive about attempting to venture into a foreign language because it is not part of their culture. Americans are all too aware that they are viewed as being "lazy" by the rest of the world for their inability/unwillingness to learn any language other than their own. The reality is that Americans happen to speak the recognized (and agreed upon) INTERNATIONAL language. Consequently, there is little need to learn another country. In Europe, if you drive your car 200 miles any direction, in all likelihood, you will be in another country where they speak another language. The proximity of other languages strongly influences the necessity to learn those languages. Americans have none of the elements that compels one to learn other languages.

So, for those Americans who *do* attempt to learn another language, there is no foundation of experience with other Americans striving to accomplish the same thing. They are uncomfortable with the experience and this probably explains the giddiness (which is probably a manifestation of that discomfort) that you have witnessed.

I have studied the Russian language off-and-on for many years. It fascinates me. And yet, I'm very bad at it. Why? Because, fundamentally, I have no need to learn the language. I have very few experiences that compels me to use it. I have to LOOK for those experiences. And, even then, I'm uncomfortable.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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What about Spanish? In my field, librarianship, I know for sure that people in large cities would not even be considered for a position of a librarian in a public library if they don't speak/write Spanish. Those librarians are not necessarily of Spanish origin, they are Americans who learned the language because of the pressuring need for that.

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I'm not saying that there is NEVER any necessity to speak another language in the U.S. - it's just that there are FAR less reasons. Sure, you can find some exceptions. You just cited one - but it's a very short list. It simply does not have the value that it has in other parts of the world.

If Russia had very few bordering countries, like the U.S., and Russian was accepted as the international language - far fewer Russians would know any other language other than Russian.

I'm an airline pilot. The only language I need to know is English because all the Air Traffic controllers *must* speak English. And all the Aeroflot pilots speak English, as well - out of necessity - all stemming from the fact that ENGLISH has been accepted as THE language of the airways.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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It does depend on a city and state/province you live in but here, in Canada, people do learn new languages. Especially in Vancouver, for example - white Canadians encourage their children to study Mandarin and/or Spanish as a Second language starting as early as in Grade 2.
In Russia, the situation with the second languages is more complex than that. I grew up in Western Siberia which does not border with any foreign countries. We, as elementary school students had a choice between French, English and German as Second Language starting in Grade 4. It was a compulsory subject through the university as well.
Do I know German? I can't speak it, but I can read. And the experience introduced me sufficiently enough to the learning of a new language that I learned English by myself.

It's a question of school education priorities in every country in my view, anyway.

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http://users.livejournal.com/_christine/

I think it is also a question of the relative power of the countries. While Canadians generally speak English, as the international language, not all Canadians speak it natively (Quebec for instance) and Canada is not as powerful as the United States. What are the motivations for learning Mandarin? China is likely to be the next economic hegemony. There are many Spanish immigrants. Russia also has a cultural history for looking outside its borders for what is fashionable, be it the French culture of Pushkin's era, the German culture of Peter I era, and now American culture. American culture tends to be, if I may say so, a bit cockier in that we look at ourselves only, more so within our borders. We were not part of a commonwealth in the same way like Canada, so while we get our resources and exploit economically other nations, we do it on our own terms so there isn't as great a perception to learn a new language. Cultural perceptions influence educational priorities.

With that being said, there are exceptions all over the place. All of the Americans I have met who are learning Russian do it from an intrinsic love of the country, language, culture, people, etc. But it's not the most common situation, unfortunately. Therefore, people are uncomfortable and embarrassed if they do not have perfect competence.

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I am 51-yr-old native American who started learning Russian when I was in the 6th grade as a part of a survey of languages: German, French, Spanish, and Russian. It was a public middle school.

We were then all required to choose from amongst those four languages, and we had to take only that language for our 7th grade year.

I chose Russian because I was fascinated by it's structure. In particular, I liked the phonetic nature of their alphabet. I found French to be frustrating in that, it seemed, every letter in their alphabet was silent. :)

I continued with my Russian studies all the way through high school (9-12th grade). I then entered the U.S. Naval Academy where I validated 6 semesters of Russian.

I majored in Aerospace Engineering and my study of Russian came to a halt, although I took a few advanced Russian courses my senior year.

Sadly, my Russian is all academic. I have never been to Russia or ever been immersed in a situation where my knowledge of Russian was critical. (Other than the time I was flying my Navy fighter in the Mediterranean and I spoke Russian on a U.S. military frequency, as a joke, which nearly turned into an international incident. It was thought that the transmission came from a Russian troller and such a transmission violated an international agreement not to interfere or jam each other's radio communications.)

I try to keep up with the Russian I have learned - but it's a struggle.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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memphis9535.livejournal.com

I appreciate your struggle, really difficult without strong necessity, ready to support you, I'm narive Russian, live in Memphis. Re: Oswald - the letter looks quite strange

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archaicos.livejournal.com

I didn't have a need to learn English 10 years ago. My interests (computers) got me back to learn it, unconsciously, without a plan or goal. Then the hobbies and work kept me using it. I didn't have a need for Spanish some 5 years ago either. I simply liked Spain and thought I might be visiting it in the future and it would be nice to be able to speak some Spanish. I now do a little. I think curiosity and interest are another way besides a particular need. As usual, whatever the cause, one needs to make a commitment, either direct or indirect (like in my case with my hobbies).

Still, why add "Ha-ha. :)"? I'm not sure I got an answer here or if you actually tried to answer it.

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jennerosityls05.livejournal.com

I am a native English speaker who is learning Russian and has traveled in Russia. I am also learning French and Spanish. While interest in travel and linguistics encouraged me to study these languages in the first place, I too can still be rather embarrassed to use what I have learned.
In part I feel that I have not had enough practice with a native speaker to do the language justice and to be sure that the pronunciations are adequate. Also, when I began taking Russian classes at my university, I had a teacher who was highly critical. Rather than using mistakes as learning tools, he would harshly reprimand and embarrass every student who slipped up on a declension or conjugation. As a result, very few people who took the class with him are comfortable speaking the language especially when it is exchanged with or around natives.
I am not sure if anyone else has had similar experiences, but maybe the learning method in the United
States can be blamed for this silliness. Even if the teaching method in the U.S. is not harsh everywhere (which I am sure it is not), maybe it is the way in which Foreign Languages are taught in our schools which make it difficult for English natives to use their new skills in conversation. I know that I took two years of intense Russian instruction, and while I could read and write fairly well in the language, in Russia I had a hard time conversing with others. I did not know any conversational Russian, only a very structured formal Russian.

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http://users.livejournal.com/_christine/

My experience was very similar to yours. I think it's because of the delay in when we start to learn (I do not know about you, but in my area it is nearly impossible to learn Russian before university) and the lack of speakers in many cases.

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Yet, your story is typical. You learned English out of expedience/necessity - your interest in computers.

In the U.S., having an interest in computers would NOT compel or encourage one to learn Russian, Spanish, Italian, or any language for that matter. Why? Because, again, ENGLISH is, by far, the recognized language on the internet and in the computer world.

You learned English because it broadly enhanced your computing experience whereas learning Russian does not significantly enhance that experience.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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Children use diminutives because people speak to them in diminutives (ручки, ножки, носик, хлебушек, тарелочка, шапочка, etc.) As to adult language learners, I did not notice that they are particularly prone to using diminutives. Could you give an example?

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I have to agree. Most non-native-Russian speakers (I being one) are vaguely aware of the vast array of diminutives. Most texts do not even expose the student to all the diminutives - just the most common ones.

In fact, in your list, I had no idea that some of those words even existed. A diminutive for хлеб???

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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Yes... I believe you can attach diminutive suffixes to pretty much any noun. However, in many cases (as with bread) these will be not diminutive but hypocoristic. But many people don't know the difference. Hence the most ridiculous mistake that many people make: knowing that матушка and батюшка are nouns with diminutives they assume that these words mean "little mother" and "little father", which is, of course, ridiculous. (And хлебушек does NOT mean "little bread" or "a small amout of bread" either!)

We had a most interesting discussion about diminutives here: http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/577382.html

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And you heard that from all the adult language learners? Or just one?

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рыболовка is not diminutive (-к- is not, in general, a diminutive suffix: кошка, пачка, мышеловка, лесопилка, свалка - none of these are diminutive). And by reading non-native speakers' writing here and in

practicerussian, I cannot say that any of them overuses diminutives.

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1. рыболовка is not a word in Russian, diminutive or otherwise
2. If 2 people you know overuse diminutives, it does not mean that ALL non-native speakers overuse them. Here's one more corroboration http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/813634.html?thread=12639042#t12639042

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I can derive "столка" from стол, which will not make it a real word.

I am not stalking anyone - you made a statement, I did not agree with it, we were discussing it. If you don't like discussion, I will avoid responding to your comments in the future.

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slovami.livejournal.com

My experience learning Russian has been that at first I didn't really use diminutives at all, because they usually weren't given in U.S. Russian textbooks. Then I started speaking to real Russians and hearing more diminutives, and began to use the ones they used. I think this led to overuse/misuse of diminutives, for two reasons:

First, because in trying to use diminutives the way Russians do instead of speaking like a dictionary, I often end up guessing and going too far, using words that don't really exist. Like подружечка.

And second, it takes a long time for a non-native speaker to understand the register or tone that using diminutives gives your speech. To us, they just sound cute (while they certainly do make speech "cuter," I hope I'm right in saying that they can add other shadings, too, like making speech sound less educated). I think many non-native speakers, especially women, use them to aim for "cuteness" - if you don't speak a language perfectly, making yourself sound endearing is probably not a bad communication strategy. I think this probably appears to a much greater degree in spoken language than in written, and in immersion environments (where the non-native speaker is likely to feel herself to be at a communicative disadvantage) than non-immersion.

Unfortunately, I have no data to support this. They're just my ponderings. :)

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erekrose.livejournal.com

I cannot evaluate Oswald's command of the Russian language, but I would like to point out that he did have dyslexia. It is evident that it affected his English writing, so I imagine it'd take a toll on his Russian writing as well.

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