Пирожки да слойки

[slovami.livejournal.com]

The book I'm reading now uses a lot of very colloquial/village-like speech. (I can't categorize it perfectly, but that's what it sounds like to me. The book is Кысь/The Slynx by Tatyana Tolstaya.) One thing that comes up again and again is the use of да as a conjunction instead of и.

Как была румяной да черноволосой, такой ей и глаза закрыли.
When they laid her to rest, she was just as rosy-cheeked and black-haired as she had always been.

Хотя другой раз и засвербят пустолетные мысли: вот бы и мне сани, да шубу, да...
Although sometimes you begin to think pointless thoughts: it'd sure be nice if I had a sleigh, and a fur coat, and...
(I don't know what засвербят пустолетные мысли literally means, but that's how I understood the sentence.)

My question: besides lending speech a folksy, simple, or maybe fairy-tale tone, is да at all different from и? Does it actually affect the semantics of a sentence? Are there instances when you can't use да but you can use и? How would someone who uses both да and и in everyday speech choose which one to use?

My sense is that да is a bit more emphatic. Maybe like saying in English,
"She was rosy-cheeked, and black-haired, too." (румяная да черноволосая)
"She was rosy-cheeked and black-haired."  (румяная и черноволосая)

But again, as a non-native speaker, I'm hesitant to trust any of my false "intuitions." :)

Thanks for any comments you have. I know this is a kind of obscure point.

Comments

[voffk.livejournal.com]

You are totally correct with your intuition ;)

Another approach to translate да could be "and also"

[la-dy-ashley.livejournal.com]

Semantically it doesn't matter, but да is stylistically marked, while И is neutral. I'd say in modern speech да occurs in proverbs and sayings mostly. I can't come up with a phrase where I'd prefer it to и. Sounds archaic and makes it sound like a fairy tale, you're right, I couldn't have put it better myself.

[la-dy-ashley.livejournal.com]

Although no, now that I think about it, да is a part of a number of constructions. However, they always feature another particle along with да:

1. да и:

Я не стала ей об этом говорить. Да и зачем? Только расстроится.

It's an emphatic way to say so what's the point?, but mind, both Да & и are present.

Or: Мне не хотелось выходить, голова болела, да и погода была плохая.
Something like, and besides, or even to top it all (less strong, though).

Ему (и, даже) заплатить хорошо предлагали, да и то он отказался. - They even offered to pay him a lot, but still he refused, or he refused anyway.

Finally, the funniest thing ever: да нет, meaning no. Colloquial, oral speech.

[crashonthelevee.livejournal.com]

Да, стиль именно такой - былинно-сказочный, при этом я бы сказала, с вкраплениями фантастики а-ля Стругацкие ("последствие ему такое вышло..." - супер!)

Slynx - классный перевод названия

еще о переводе (мое скромное мнение):

Хотя другой раз и засвербят пустолетные мысли: вот бы и мне сани, да шубу, да...
Although sometimes you begin to think pointless thoughts: it'd sure be nice if I had a sleigh, and a fur coat, and...
(I don't know what засвербят пустолетные мысли literally means, but that's how I understood the sentence.)

yes, that's exactly what it means. Literally -- well, I'm not sure there actually is such a word as пустолетные in Russian. To me it sounds like something in between futile and frivolous (and does one get overwhelmed, on occasion, by the itch of frivolous dreams: what if I, too, had a sleigh, and a fur coat, and such...)

[slovami.livejournal.com]

>>("последствие ему такое вышло..." - супер!)

I thought so too!

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

There are basically two meanings of the union «да» (don't confuse with particle «да» which means “yes”): «да» as «и» and «да» as «но». Example of the latter:

Видит око, да зуб неймёт. (The eye can see [that far], but the tooth can't reach [that far])

[rasovsky.livejournal.com]

in this case, да = и

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

To me да is different than и in the sense that an enumeration with да appears exhaustive while with и you cannot tell if everything has been listed. When you use да instead of и you imply that there is nothing else left unmentioned. Compare:
На нем были черные брюки и красная рубашка.
На нем были черные брюки да красная рубашка.
In the first sentence you say that he was wearing black pants and red shirt but it does not mean that was all he was wearing, in the second sentence you say that he was wearing just the black pants and the red shirt and nothing else. You get all kinds of different meanings from this like in your example "Как была румяной да черноволосой, такой ей и глаза закрыли." the author does not literally mean that she was just rosy-cheeked and black-haired and nothing else but he implies that all of her qualities were listed and thus she has not changed in any of them when she died.

[elwen-tindomiel.livejournal.com]

Немного не в тему.
Глядя на перевод названия (классно, кстати), я вспомнила одно из интервью Толстой, в котором она говорила о переводе "Кысь" на японский. Проще говоря: ей подарили переведенный экземпляр, ей очень понравилось оформление, но названия она не увидела. И спрашивает, мол, так как же вы перевели главное слово? Ей переводчик отвечает: "О, это очень страшное слово... слово НЯ!"
Думаю, тебе не нужно объяснять, как это слово употребляется у российских любителей аниме.)

[oryx_and_crake]

I have to remind that the working language of this community is English. Thank you.

[elwen-tindomiel.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know. But remembering also that the author of the post knows Russian on a very high level I decided to type the comment in Russian.
I will do it no more, because I understand that other english-speaking members may not understand it quite well.

[whitest-owl.livejournal.com]

I don't know what засвербят пустолетные мысли literally means, but that's how I understood the sentence.Literally 'свербящая мысль' means 'the thought urge me to do something and I can not get rid of it.'
Usually, you can translate 'свербить' (засвербить, засвербило) as 'urge'. For example:
Мне засвербило прыгнуть с парашютом. = I have an urge to sky jump.

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the comments, everyone! They're all really interesting, and I feel like I understand it better now.