(no subject)

[miconazole.livejournal.com]

This might be a stupid question, but are сказать and говорить just a normal perfective/imperfective pair?

For instance, I was discussing political correctness with someone, and I said "Никто не говорит 'Kyiv' по-английски" (lol sorry Ukrainians, but it's true), but for some reason this keeps pinging my wrong-meter. Is говорить correct here, or сказать, or maybe some other verb? I think maybe it just feels wrong because I can't let go of English, but I dunno.

And, while we're at it, do по-английски and на английском mean the same thing?

PS One more thing that I just remembered, один (the number, not the adjective) has a plural form одни, right? When are you supposed to use одни??

PPS Ok, this is definitely a stupid question, but do you think it's more acceptable in Russian than English to use multiple exclamation or question marks in a row like this?????? I'm just wondering because I see a lot of (intelligent) Russians do it while in English it is widely regarded as a sign of illiteracy. I also seem to recall something about business letters and exclamation marks.

Comments

[paparazzzzi.livejournal.com]

1. I'm not sure that сказать and говорить ARE a pair, but you use it right. "Никто не говорит 'Kyiv' по-английски" is an absolutely correct sentence.

2. По-английски sounds very natural.
на английском is a short version of на английском языке. Some people can say that but I thnik it asks some noun, like Песня на английском языке and with a verb you need по-английски.

PS. Одни брюки (or одна пара брюк).
“Paired” nouns or nouns which have just plural form.

PPS. It's not acceptable in Russian. It just came from the Internet :-)

[alon_68]

1. Yes, it was quite correct to say. Nobody says = Никто не говорит
2. Yes, actually the same. I don't feel any difference. It's correct for other languages too (по-немецки=на немецком, по-болгарски=на болгарском). However, the first form doesn't exist where the name of the language is noun (you can say на иврите, на пушту, на хинди only)
3. Одни=solely, self. Дети дома одни=Kids are at home without adults.

[pitsot.livejournal.com]

1. Not sure, but I think it is just a normal perfective/imperfective pair.

2. "Никто не говорит 'Kyiv' по-английски" is correct phrase.

3. По-английски and на английском have different meaning. If you mean language, it is "по-английски".

4. As I understand, there is no plural form for number один. If you mean digit, it would be единИца and единИцы in plural form. Одни is used in sentences like "из одежды остались одни штаны", "мы остались одни". I think English equivalents are "only", "alone".

5. As I know, it is OK to use triple question or exclamation marks like in "Наши выиграли!!!", but more of it is more likely to be sign of illiteracy.

?

[paparazzzzi.livejournal.com]

As I understand, there is no plural form for number один.

http://gramota.ru/slovari/dic/?word=%EE%E4%ED%E8&all=x

Re: ?

[zeqfreed.livejournal.com]

As the two definitions read, 'одни' can be either a numeral or a particle. As a numeral the word is used with nouns having only plural form and so-called "paired" nouns (e.g. одни ножницы), and as a particle the usage is somewhat similar, but i can't remember or make up any example.

Also 'одни' (as an adverb i believe) is used to indicate that a group of things or people is on its own, alone, unique in some sense.

Я не могу делать два дела одновременно, — у меня одни руки. It means the speaker is unable to do several tasks simultaneously as he's using both of his hands right now.
Дети играли на площадке одни. The children were playing alone on the playground. Presumably unsupervised.

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

The true sign of illiteracy IMO would be the extra or (more rarely) omitted soft sign in a reflexive verb:
Мне нравиться музыка. <- the soft sign must not be here
Она не может не нравиться. <- the soft sign must be here
Many just unconditionally put the sign in the verb without doing a simple mental exercise.

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

Говорить and сказать are not a pair. They are a pair like "to speak" and "to tell". "Никто не говорит 'Kyiv' по-английски" is correct.

По-английски is an adverb, на английском is just a fragment they are not interchangeable.

I believe triple ! and ? were correct or acceptable at the very least way before Internet - I remember seeing them in children literature in 70s-80s. Long strings of them never were.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Not exactly a fragment -- it's an adjectival noun, and in the cases where language name is adjective they could be intercganged freely..

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

Russian nouns do not contain spaces.

[drivebyluna.livejournal.com]

I hate imperfective and perfective aspect >_

[miconazole.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think they're fine, but the verbs of motion can go burn.

Also, numbers.

[cassandraclue.livejournal.com]

those aren't aspects. those are tenses.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Contrary to the opinions already provided prior to me typing this, I wouldn't approve "Никто не говорит 'Kyiv' по-английски".

"По-английски" is one of the possible translations of "in English" word combination into Russian.
Nothing is wrong with thinking in your native language and then translating into the foreign, and people will very much likely understand the real message. However, I presume you meant "in English" as in "in the medium of the English language".

The precise translation of that would be neither of your options.
"По-английски" means "in English" as in "the english language equivalent of something".
Example: "Как по-английски будет 'собака'?"
Translation: "What's the English for 'собака'?"


"На английском языке" means "in English" as in "worded by means of english language".
Example: "Извиите, я опоздал." "Скажите это на английском языке и займите своё место."
Translation: "Sorry, I'm late." "Say that in English and then take your seat."

And "Никто не говорит 'Kyiv' по-английски" for me begs for a continuation like "Как только дело доходит до произнесения 'Kyiv' вслух, все переходят на суахили". (Trnsltn: "Just when it comes to saying 'Kyiv' aloud, anyone switches to Swahili.") Well, initial sentence does sound as if the point is people evading English.

On a side-note, I find such (often unappreciated even by native speakers) fine peculiarities exhilarating. ^^

If you really want to sound like russian, I'd advise to give up the economy of words a bit and take a sidestep from literal word-by-word translation.

"Никто из общающихся на английском языке не говорит 'Kyiv'" is what comes to my mind. ("общающихся" is used instead of "говорящих" in order to avoid the tautology of "говорящий не горорит")
You could also use "не употреблять", "не использовать", "не произносить 'Kiev' as 'Kyiv'" in your speech instead of "не говорить".



Regarding the multiple exclamation or question marks. My personal opinion is that they're justified in written speech, when they actually carry the emotions with them. When one means an intense anxiety when adding additional question mark to his question, it's okay.

"Что?" may mean a phlegmatic inquiry, while "Что??" is a seriously concerned one. "ЧТО?!!" is an alarmed shouted in your face one.
More than three of the same marks and it turns unbelievable, over the edge and a sign of certain lack of coherence on the part of the typing person, intentional or not, if you ask me. It's often sincere and unintentional in MMORPGs communication, I'd say. :) Often, a random person clearly fails to see his punctuation problems (a few lines allow to conclude that), but adds more question marks when attempting to make himself shouting, I dunno, more noticeable. Illireracy, yes.

[miconazole.livejournal.com]

I see... thanks :B

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Do I see a grammar nazi in action? ;) I believe that you're complicating things unnecessarily here.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Some epithet. >_<
Well, say what you want, I'm providing an opinion of my own.

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

When we say that people, speaking Russian, don't say something in a particular way we say "Так по-русски не говорят" so I don't see how English-speaking folks should be different in this regard. "Никто из общающихся на русском языке так не говорит" sounds like an oxymoron because the person saying this either lacks a good command of Russian herself or is pompous to the extreme.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Surely you won't be able to replace "Так" with "Это" without seriously awkwardizing the given "Так по-русски не говорят" sentence, will you? The meaning shifts even with this replacement.

That's kind of the whole point, you are probably thinking for the speaker, but simple 'Kyiv' is absolutely not anywhere near an adverb. Rather a noun. Not an analogue of "так" in the matters of sentence structure.
Therefore that so called "oxymoron" is of your own construction and, frankly, critisize it as much as you want then.

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

Тo give you some examples with nouns: " "Кыев" по-русски не говорят", ""Один булка" по-русски никто не говорит", ""Моя плакал" это не по-русски" etc. etc.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Third example is a restructured one and the first two possess the same flaws as the original one. Nothing's moved, nothing's changed.

[ex-desbaraj.livejournal.com]

"По-английски" sometimes means "in an English way"
You may say: "Он так хорошо готовит макароны, прямо по-итальянски!"
Or "Он все делает по порядку, по-немецки"
"Он говорит по-южному" (if the adjective is not -ский, -цкий)

We use "одни" in the sense of the plural indefinite article ("Приходили одни ребята, спрашивали о тебе" - some guys)
or in the sense "alone"

Говорить-сказать might be treated as a pair, but there is поговорить.
Вчера мы долго говорили.
Мы поговорили и пошли. ("Мы сказали и пошли" would be incorrect)
СКАЗАТЬ means an instant action, usually "to say one time", but it's possible "Сказал три раза" (sth instant still)

[david-us.livejournal.com]

I'm a native English speaker, but I studied Russian many years ago. With regards to your question about how/when you might use the word одни. As I recall, its use is very rare, for obvious reasons, but I think you use it when you have to, like with words that are always in the plural - like очки (eyeglasses).

So, if someone were to ask you how many pairs of glasses you have, you might say, "У меня только одни очки." (I have only one pair of glasses.)

I think that is correct. Maybe a native Russian speaker can verify this.

David Emerling